Lovecraft Country Omnibus w/ Briahna Joy Grey, Ashley Ray, Joe Hartzler, and Emma Bowers

[00:00:00] What up y'all, welcome. We got a special compilation, omnibus edition of all our episodes of the gone but not forgotten, underrated but troubled HBO horror family drama Lovecraft Country.

[00:00:17] A lot of people are talking Lovecraft Country the past couple of weeks because of Sinners, Ryan Coogler's film, which is taking the world by storm, lots of overlap in theme, in tone, in subject matter, and even cast, Wumi Mosaku is in both.

[00:00:39] Not only do we break down each episode with some wonderful special guests, including Briahna Joy Grey, we also dive deep in to H.P. Lovecraft's Lovecraftian lore, Lovecraftian horror. Each episode I discuss H.P. Lovecraft's short story, all of which are free to read online.

[00:01:01] And if that's not enough Lovecraft for you, you can head on over to Tubi and watch Exegesis Lovecraft, a wonderful documentary that I was very fortunate to be a part of. It's really unique, really interesting. Please check it out when you can. And if you want to get miniseries like this when they come out, along with bonus episodes, commentaries, and more, please subscribe at patreon.com slash struggle session.

[00:01:30] Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy. I watched it. I watched the show. Now, I know what you're thinking. This show would probably have something to do with the cosmic horror writer H.P. Lovecraft.

[00:01:58] We talk about him on our other show, Struggle Session, a whole lot. We're very big fans of his work. In fact, we're going to talk about some actual H.P. Lovecraft stories during this episode. But if you are confused, Lovecraft Country, from what I've watched and I've also read the book that's based on, which is also titled Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff,

[00:02:20] the real connection that this show, the book, have to H.P. Lovecraft and his work is that one of the main characters in the show, in the book, in the property, read H.P. Lovecraft when he was a kid.

[00:02:37] And I think so far, I've read the book, and from what I've seen in the show, that's pretty much the beginning and the end of anything to do with Howard Phillips Lovecraft, as far as Lovecraft Country goes. Well, I mean, you know, there were some scary monsters and stuff in that first episode, but yeah, no, it was not a, I don't know, this is not based necessarily on Lovecraft work, right?

[00:03:07] Although they, like, talk a little bit about Lovecraft in the first episode and, like, talk about, you know, his bad essays, his more cancelable works. Yes, yes, they did spend a few minutes in the episode, and this is straight from the book, just kind of canceling Lovecraft, who the property inexplicably is named after.

[00:03:29] In fact, you saw this bleed over in the real world because, like, the day before the show premiered is the funniest thing I've ever seen. Funniest PR rollout I've ever seen. Like, the LA Times and HBO partnered up on, like, this big, like, moment story explaining to people why the hit show that everyone, the new show that everyone is telling them to watch is named after a white supremacist racist. It's the funniest thing.

[00:03:58] It was so strange because, really, the show, there's no reason that the book need to be named Lovecraft Country. Even less reason for the show to do so. It actually kind of bothered me that they're, like, they were trying to, like, use the name for promo and also, like, smear the writer, too.

[00:04:18] Like, one person sent me, I saw one person make a post that was like, now, I guess, you know, now with this, you know, HP, with this rollout, you know, Lovecraft is going to become one of those writers that, if he's on your bookshelf, you have to hide the name or turn it around or something. If you have guests coming over. Just the, like, silly, silly shit that makes no sense whatsoever, especially when you actually watch the show, which I don't think the show is necessarily, like, bad. And the book is pretty entertaining.

[00:04:48] But it just has, like, no thematic connection to HP Lovecraft. It tries to be nothing like an HP Lovecraft story in any way, shape, or form. Like, it has so much more resemblance to something. It's like Books of Magic, which is, like, the Neil Gaiman comic book series, which was the precursor to Harry Potter.

[00:05:10] It's like, you're not watching this show and seeing, like, you know, cryptic cults and, you know, cosmic entities out in space that are filtering down through the stars. No, it's all, like, a couple of old people, a couple of people know how to do, like, very unimpressive, like, magic spells. And that's basically the extent of the supernatural element in the book. The show, as you mentioned, has these monsters show up. We don't show up in the book.

[00:05:39] And it's kind of, like, a cool, you know, scene that actually is a little bit more Lovecraft, even though Lovecraft isn't really about action. But, yeah, let's get in to the first episode titled Sundown. Because every, now every prestige TV show, in case you don't know, has to be named after an instance of racial injustice.

[00:06:05] I guess that's the new way to be woke, is, yeah, to specifically reference, like, a real event that happened in the first title of a science fiction television show. So this show is, you know, based on this novel by Matt Ruff. It was supposed to always be, he had it planned as, like, an X-Files type TV show. And I think you got to get the feel of it. The novel is very episodic. Like, each chapter is mostly, like, disconnected from the other.

[00:06:34] There's all these, like, little adventures and ghost stories that people go on. Like, there's, like, an evil doll and stuff. Like, very un-Lovecraftian. But, you know, very well set up for, you know, a TV show. But the first, so the show is ran by Misha Green. But J.J. Abrams and Jordan Peele are also executive producers. And the first scene, I swear to God, looks like B-roll from Ready Player One.

[00:07:03] It really does. Listen, did I, was I surprised to see cool Lovecraft monster kind of designs? And did I, and, like, do I like that? Absolutely. I did actually kind of like that. But it did have that very sort of covered in slime look that all the J.J. Abrams 3D kind of has. You know, this was like one of the J.J.

[00:07:32] FX houses pieces. And, yeah, it kind of has that, I don't know, Star Trek-y kind of look to it. It opens up and you think you're on, like, a World War I battlefield. But then you look up and it's like Mordor. But, like, the Martians from War of the Worlds are attacking. And then a Martian princess from, like, John Carter beams down and starts making out with the protagonist who's this black soldier.

[00:08:01] And then Cthulhu is there, but then, like, Jackie Robinson smashes him with a baseball bat. I mean, it's like a cool scene. It literally is a dream, though. Yeah. It's quite literally a dream. And I think that that's about the long and short of it. You know what I mean? It was like a cool scene. But, like, this is a dream that this guy had because he, like, reads sci-fi books pretty much. Which, you know.

[00:08:29] And, of course, like, the weird thing about it is because this is coming from JJ, as somebody who read sci-fi wrong, like, no actual Lovecraft fan would have that sort of dream about Cthulhu. It was incredibly disrespectful to him. It's like the toyification, the Ray Player oneification of that thing. A big, goofy-ass, like, Lego movie Cthulhu. Like, you know, a Rathar Cthulhu.

[00:08:56] Even though that scene is kind of silly and not really what you want from something called Lovecraft Country, it still was probably the most Lovecraftian thing. Yeah. I was like, I was still kind of surprised. I mean, look, listen. It's like a good opening scene for a TV show because it's like, that's like the whole effects. That's like they did a movie's worth of effects. They did movie effects in that scene. Yeah. In that single scene. You know what I mean? And so I'm like, it is kind of fun. It was a cool scene to watch.

[00:09:24] It did have a sort of video game-y kind of tone to it. And ultimately, I'm like, what it meant in the end was like that this guy reads sci-fi. Like, that's kind of what the, you know, the point of it was, I guess. But I didn't like dislike it. I was like, okay, damn. Like, they're really like making, they're really spending some money in this TV show when I first started watching it. Yeah.

[00:09:51] I just wish that like they had spent the money in a way that was like, had any connection to like the story they were telling. Or I don't know. It just did. Yeah. It just was like, it was like. It was a little Vimeo movie. It's like, it was cool to watch because I'm like, oh, damn. They like really did some good VFX with like Lovecrafty kind of stuff. But yeah, it ultimately is like a five minute long sort of music video or something like that. You know what I mean?

[00:10:16] Like, it just literally doesn't have anything to do with the actual story. It's like you accomplish the same thing. And like, obviously this was better than doing it this way, but like by showing a bookshelf full of books. You know what I mean? This scene could have been accomplished literally by like we pan over his bookshelf and we see that John Carter is on it. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:10:41] So the whole premise of the show is, you know, you're kind of following this black family called the Freeman family. And a couple of their friends and associates as they're kind of introduced into this world of science fiction and, you know, magic and the supernatural that, you know, for the most part, they are never, ever surprised by.

[00:11:06] Because the real monster is always, always, always racism. Well, I noticed it in this episode that the real enemy was racism. Matt Ruff, who wrote this book, God bless him. He is a white man. He is a white guy. Is that true? Yes, he's a white guy. And he. Wow. And it is very clear.

[00:11:30] Even the premise of the show, which it shares with the book, where the main character, Atticus Freeman, gets a letter from his father telling him that he needs to come to Arkham and, you know, find out about his family legacy and where his people come from and all this stuff. And I'm kind of giving it, you know, describing it very quickly here. But the thing about that really struck me as off.

[00:11:59] And I knew the person who wrote this had to be white is that Atticus's father is like if you are black. And so if you're black in America, like you really genuinely don't have a lot of family history. Right.

[00:12:15] Like it only goes back so far and like is in the premise of the story, at least in the book, they kind of tamp this down in the TV show, tries to make it seem like it is unusual that he only has records for his family going back more than three generations. I'm like, do the math on that. That's you're like talking about like, oh, yeah, you think he probably.

[00:12:40] Yeah, most black families, a lot of black families probably don't have records pre, you know, emancipation. My family does not. I mean, it is a sore spot, but it's just like it's a sore spot, but it would not be inciting incident necessarily in the way that he tries to use it in the storyline. It just it just didn't make it make sense. It's like, of course, like that, like he it didn't seem like he realized that most black people just don't have access to this information.

[00:13:10] This is part of what we struggle with. And he could have framed it a little bit better. It's like, oh, hey, shockingly enough, we found this information about our family. But instead, it's like, oh, we've been hunt. I've been angry at your mother for all these years because she wouldn't tell us about, you know, her history or whatever. And then when you get to the history, it's just like one more guy. Like they find that one more person like the white slave owner that own their last free relative. And that's it. They don't really get into it beyond that.

[00:13:39] I got to be honest with you that, you know, after our last fan cast, I was dreading ever watching TV shows. You know what I mean? I mean, I guess we were doing the Star Trek one and I do like that show. But, you know, after the last one, I for this show, I was like, you know, I kind of don't mind this show. So, you know, I was like, I think that I was like, I watched this one. I was like, you know, it's not bad. So far are all pretty charming.

[00:14:03] Like, you know, I was a little worried, you know, going into it because of all the fucking Lovecraft bullshit going on. And then like all the like, you know, PR rollout that it was going to be this like, like big. I thought it was going to be like really about making it super Lovecrafty or something like that. And I'm kind of relieved that it's not. You know what I mean?

[00:14:26] Like in watching the episode, I thought I thought I would be like, oh, my God, like they're going to be doing Lovecraft, but also like being like, but he was like bad. That's fine. I just was like, I've seen a lot of Lovecraft stuff and Lovecraft does Lovecraft best. I ended up at the end of this episode being like, oh, OK, it's like a just sort of sci fi magic show about a black family in the 60s. And like, I'm like, that's a good setting and group of characters. And I like sci fi. So fucking why not? Yeah, I'm just I just a little bit more. I'm a bit disappointed.

[00:14:56] The show is a little bit better on this point. But if in the in the book, it's all like when you get to the magic stuff, it's like a fucking like racist ghost or shit like like they have to buy books for a racist ghost. Like it's very like kind of like silly shit, not really not scary or horrific or even like really that weird for the most part. But the show, it brings those last scene with the like giant like monsters.

[00:15:25] I guess they'll probably call them Shawgots. That was actually pretty good. And it like reminded me of something like Ash versus the evil dead, you know, very bloody, very visceral and pretty, you know, fun little horror scene. I wish I really wish the show was more of that. I could have like the scenes of, you know, the real villain racism where they're chased by the racist police officers twice in the episode.

[00:15:51] It's like it just did nothing for me because like what does it what are they trying to tell us about racism that like you is uniquely told through this story or that we already don't know. And it seems like the purpose of when you look at something like Watchmen and you look at this, too, because it does some the same thing is like they just mine history for the specific racial incidents that were a surprise to the writers and the executive producers.

[00:16:19] And they put it in the show and they're supposed to be like and they think they're like informing people like, oh, like Sundown Towns were a thing because they explain they explain to you in the show where the Sundown Town is as if to the black protagonist as if he doesn't know because they assume that you, the viewer, don't know because you're white.

[00:16:40] That's part of the reason why I think that these shows work, you know, is that it's like, you know, these are sort of being made by people who haven't paid attention to, you know, anything to do with race like in their entire life. You know what I mean? Kind of like for people who have never paid any any attention to anything to do with race in their entire lives. And it's and it's like I really do think like that that is at least a part and like and I actually think that even, you know,

[00:17:08] like people will even make and I think that there's even a valid argument to be made for like why it's valuable to like to trick people to trick like rich white people with prestige TV and into learning about this stuff. I'm like, I guess if you're going to use prestige TV fucking fuck it. Why not? I guess at the end of the day is like it never it never gets past the becoming informed about specific instances of racial violence.

[00:17:36] It's I actually think it's kind of a problem that crops up in this show and the book, too, because like the implication is that even during the Jim Crow South, like the problem, the Jim Crow era, excuse me. The problem was just like in the South, like as long as you make it to Chicago, like you're like good, you know, like you know, you make to a city. You're like you're like good and really like. Which is actually really how people feel like even today.

[00:18:05] Yeah, like and how little and how little things have even changed, you know, like I like my family left Louisiana to go to Chicago several from Louisiana and Kentucky. And I can tell you racism like is still there now. Like it wasn't like it certainly helped to be around in a city with, you know, a large black population that didn't have necessarily the same Jim Crow walls. But for God's sakes, it's not like it wasn't the solution, you know, and it was and the problems in the end.

[00:18:34] I think when you look at this show, you look at watching it just seems it just they're painting this picture that like racism is just kind of a thing of the past. And like it almost feels like the same like it even seems like a regression from like the blind side and like crash and stuff that was at least about racism in the modern day. Very corny.

[00:18:59] Yeah, there is something funny like it similarly between this and Watchmen where you're like, man, cops like were racist back in the day when they're like when they had old timey cars and shit. You know what I mean? It's like we're we're portraying racist cops on television, but only if the cars are really old and it's clear that this is not present day. Yeah. Like and there really is no reason that the show needs to take place during the Jim Crow era.

[00:19:27] That's like what can you think of any reason other than like believing that this sort of racism does not exist now that you don't have to worry about cops on the road right now if you're a black traveler like that. Not like you know, like it really just it's just like a really short sighted, you know, limited way to address racism, which is why it disappoints me that the show and the story and the IP is just not concerned with the themes of Lovecraft.

[00:19:56] Because I think the themes of Lovecraft, you know, could be pointed towards, you know, really revolutionary and emancipatory like ideas like the idea, the basic idea behind, you know, Lovecraft's world, which is not the basic idea behind Lovecraft Country. Is that like the fundamental order of the world is like nefarious and malignant and anti-human and anti-life.

[00:20:22] And you we but, you know, maybe we will and we might not ever, ever have the power to defeat it because we're a constant. We're just completely engulfed by it. And I choose to read that as, you know, Lovecraft getting at, you know, capitalism and and the post-industrial world that we now live in.

[00:20:43] I think that, you know, the reason why his stories and themes resonate to this day is because he was writing in a way that fits onto like the world that we live in, like where capitalism just is like top down, just controls every single aspect of our life and white supremacy, obviously a big part of that. So you can read, you know, Cthulhu as, you know, as white as racism itself, you know, as capitalism itself,

[00:21:11] instead of saying like there is magic, but the real problem is, you know, just these individual races that we, you know, don't that we, you know, encounter if we leave our, you know, urban havens. And in the 1960s. If we did, if we if the thing is, like there was a time in America where if you left Chicago in the 1960s, you could get in, you could like get in trouble with the police if you're a black.

[00:21:41] Yeah. But I don't want to bag on the show too much because I do, you know, because I do like the show still. And also, you know, again, I'm like, you know, if it's baby steps, if this is what it if this is what it needs to be, you know what I mean? I'm like, it still is like, you know, a good science fiction story. And it's like and it's a compelling sort of period and group of characters. Yeah. Yeah. I like I like I like it so far.

[00:22:07] I but again, like as far as like dropping the ball on Lovecraft, like why aren't these like why are the Freemans in the book? And I think in the show, too, they're such they're really squares. They're like yuppie squares in the I think that's going to happen in the show when Letitia played by a journey Smollett gets some money. What she does is become a landlord. Oh, that's the social progress and uplift that this, you know,

[00:22:36] show is kind of so funny to. And I wish like, you know, like why? Like, you know, you could tell interesting stories like, hey, Atticus, you've got you know, you were served in the in the Korean War. You were fighting for U.S. imperialism, you know, overseas and you deal with racism at home. How you feel about that? He doesn't have seem to have any really feelings about it. He just, you know, I'm a soldier and I'm big and I'm strong and I can beat people up when the show calls for it.

[00:23:05] And that's kind of the beginning and the end of that sort of, you know, opportunity for angst or alienation. I feel like the show, it fit and really just externalizes racism in a way that like the like the biggest problem you're facing. Well, the word, the only problem you're facing is like having your ability to like move and buy homes and stuff is the big problem.

[00:23:33] And it doesn't really get into like the psychological effect, which is a missed opportunity when you're talking about H.P. Lovecraft, who is all about, you know, thinking about of like people being like driven mad by how like dark and fucked up the world is. And I mean, you could have like a France fan, a France Fanon like reading of, you know, the psychological impacts of racism and, you know, where that ties in with alienation.

[00:24:00] You could do all that stuff in the show where you're tackling race and Lovecraft, but the show is just like not interested in really, you know, dealing with Lovecraft. And as far as it tackles race, it's just tells us again and again that racism was like a problem a few decades ago. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but as far as like being a episodic, like science fiction show, I think the effects were pretty good.

[00:24:27] And and I'm still ready to be a fan cast. I am still ready to be a fan cast here. I really am looking forward to seeing the next episode I'm interested in. But, you know, I bagged on it enough in not being a Lovecraftian. So I decide, you know, as we're doing this show, we might read a short story of Lovecraft to go with each episode that covers maybe something that I think the show is missing.

[00:24:52] So the story I picked today was The Outsider by H.B. Lovecraft, of course. One of his shortest stories, but a very neat and succinct one. Jack, is this your first time reading it? Yes. No, this story is my first time reading the story. And I do like it. It's a good example of what you're talking about. Lovecraft, like thinks the world sucks pretty much like it's just it's like a story of someone like walking around and being like this sucks.

[00:25:22] That sucks. Like the fucking lake sucks. Yeah. Like so our boy, our, you know, melty boy here, who's our main character protagonist. This is a story written from the monster's perspective, actually. And where he's, you know, lived in this vast, you know, labyrinth that he never escapes. He finds out that the castle peak that he he ascends to was actually like the ground floor of Earth.

[00:25:51] And he ends up climbing out of, you know, this nether realm or whatever that's underneath human society. And he sees people in there, of course, horrified by him. He has no idea what he looks like or, you know, what type of creature he is. And he finally looks in the mirror and sees and is horrified. And then he retreats back underground and it kind of, you know, starts becoming, you know, embration.

[00:26:19] He starts embracing his ghoulishness and, you know, spends his time in the catacombs of Nephrinkah, an unknown valley of Hadoth by the Nile. And it's just a really, really cool, neat story. And I think it's one of the more fun Lovecraft stories where I think is, you know, really succinct and really well written. It is one of my favorite ones. And it has that sense of like, as you said, like the world sucks.

[00:26:49] I hate it. I hate it here. What I like so much about it is it's like, you know, this is almost like a catcher in the rye from Shrek's perspective. Yeah. Yeah. And it really gets like, I wish I could see that angst from, you know, Atticus in the show or in the book. But he just never seems like he's just angry about the race and his father, too. But they're both kind of like these angry, you know, black men.

[00:27:17] But they're just angry at racism because it's unfair because they're just as good as any white men. They deserve all the privileges to any white men. White men get in the world as it is. Instead of suggesting that, hey, maybe the world as it is is fucked up. And we should instead of just trying to get on the same level as white people becoming landlords and shit, we should dismantle the systems of oppression as they are if we can. Listen, and it's also like you're right.

[00:27:45] It is such a missed opportunity because, you know, there's such crossover between like, you know, this sort of like a view of the world where everyone is like looking at you in fear and like hate and hating you and everything like that. You know what I mean? Like there is such crossover between that and Jim Crow South and also just modern day America. You know what I mean?

[00:28:05] Like to use the kind of like evil world and map that over our evil world, you know, there's a good opportunity there. But, you know, I hope, you know, there were some changes in the show that I saw that were fast improvements on the book. The characters actually sound black when they're talking to one another, which isn't always the case in the book. There's some cool monsters. There's some cool fight scenes.

[00:28:35] So like the show is taking some turns. And Misha Green, from what I saw of her prior show, you know, it was like a pretty well done like soap opera, you know, type show about, you know, these slaves who were escaping. It was it was pretty, you know, entertaining, you know, week to week show from what what I saw. J.J. Abrams involvement, obviously, probably going to be cancerous and possibly destroy all this.

[00:29:04] You know, I will say this. I will say this. J.J. really sometimes like doesn't work on the shows at all and doesn't pay attention to them like that. Like we can hope that this could be one of the ones where J.J. is kind of just set it and forget it. And then this could be kind of fly under the wire. So what are you looking forward to? You know, since we are going to be doing this week to week, Jack, well, let me ask you, wait, what are you kind of looking forward to from the first episode? Let me see. How many episodes are there?

[00:29:33] I'm like now I'm just like going to be 10. They could do a full 10 famously. Watchmen only he was only able to eke out nine. They wanted to could only get out nine. And I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm just interested. You know, I this is like a well produced like science fiction show. It's got like good effects. And like, you know, I think that like the characters are all compelling. I think the actors are all good.

[00:29:59] Like this is like, you know, the HBO thing kind of working for me. You know what I mean? I'm like this. I like when HBO like they failed so often in my eyes with a lot of their sort of big swing sci fi shows. I don't like Westworld. I didn't like, you know, I didn't like Watchmen. I don't know.

[00:30:21] I guess I'm kind of after watching this first episode, I was kind of like excited that there's going to be a week to week sci fi show with high production value that I actually don't find like annoying on a sort of core level. All right. Well, I'm very excited because Jack, I really did that to you with Watchmen. Like I put you through so much with that. So I'm happy that you're watching. I really think I would have stopped watching that show. I really do.

[00:30:48] I honestly think I would have stopped watching after a couple episodes. All right. Well, I'm happy that you're happy, Jack. So the engineer last week did not understand our instructions that Lovecraft every time we say it was to be bleeped. Right. Just just to avoid the controversy. Just no need to take any stance on it. You know what I mean? Like better to avoid it altogether. Just sort of like excise it. So this is a note to the producer.

[00:31:17] Every time we say the name of, you know, that that certain very canceled author. Go ahead and cancel it. Like just just bleep it. Just just have a little little that little fingernail emoji. I don't know what it means. I think it's supposed to imply somebody who has gotten their comeuppance. It's clearly a very troubled, disturbed man. If anyone deserves to be shamed and humiliated. If anybody deserves the red fingernail painting emoji. It is.

[00:31:48] And that's key. But this is a fan cast. We're not going to dwell on it. We're not going to dwell on the negative. Folks, I can tell you for the first time ever that I am fan casting about something I actually am a fan of. Wow. This is a big step. Wow. This is what every fan caster hopes is that someday the show that they're just assigned

[00:32:14] to watch because it's the show that's currently airing is actually something that they would want to watch on their own. This is really very exciting. It is. It is the drill tweet. Fan cast is back, baby. It's good again. We'll pal. The second episode of Lovecraft Country titled Whitey's on the Moon, a reference to the

[00:32:37] poem, which makes a very good appearance in this episode by Gil Scott Heron. I just love this episode. I really wasn't excited about the show before it came out just because of the show. Watchmen PTSD. But here's the thing. This show was started filming in like the middle of 2018. It wasn't tainted. It had nothing to do with Watchmen.

[00:33:04] It just so happened that there was another sci-fi show on a famous property that was updating the content to be politically relevant as far as race goes. It was just a coincidence. They were just greenlighting similar pitches is all. That's all. They weren't influenced by each other. HBO was just making a lot of these types of shows. Yeah. There could have been more. We could be watching Confederate right now, actually.

[00:33:34] I mean, Confederate was like the announced attempt. They were like, HBO, I think, was like, oh, we're going to kind of deal with race in America. And our first one is going to be Confederate from the Game of Thrones guys. Yeah. And for people who don't remember, that was going to be the show where the Confederacy won and they were going to do alternate history show about it. But the problem is, like, I don't know what the difference would be.

[00:34:02] I mean, because if you're looking around, it's kind of seems like if the side with all the statues up is usually the side that won. But I feel like, you know, like God never closes the door without opening a window. And I know there might be some discretion within the three of us, but a lot of people were disappointed by the ending of Game of Thrones. And perhaps by proxy, that huge just disgust and rage within the community has prevented Confederacy from occurring.

[00:34:31] So, you know, what in what's the name of the Game of Thrones land? What's it called? Westeros. So I bet in Westeros in like 20 years, they're going to be a bunch of fucking Danny statues. Like dragon statue, daddy statue. And it's heritage, not hate. Yeah, I think you're right, though, Emma.

[00:35:00] It's very funny that what stopped Confederacy was not how completely offensive and fucked up, you know, it was that those guys were even like trying to do that show. And everyone was right to get upset about them doing it. But it was actually just that their last season of Game of Thrones sucked. And HBO just like kind of was like, let's Star Wars have them. Fuck it. And that's not happening either. Yeah, that's another one that's not ever going to happen. All right. Everything is terrible right now. I'm just sort of delighted that they ate shit. I don't know.

[00:35:31] We could take our small victories. Take small victories. I mean, you know, like me and Leslie talked about The Last of Us 2. And it's like maybe hatred begets more hatred. So I'm just as nice seeing people eat shit. Yeah. I would be remiss if I didn't mention this. Another show that we almost could be fan casting right now about, you know, similar topics. And people, a lot of people, this trailer hit Twitter and people were just losing their shit.

[00:35:59] Knots and Crosses, which is an alternate. It's like a YA novel based on an alternate present where Africa actually colonized the rest of the world. So you have like all these people in, you know, vaguely African carb, all these, like a mix of like Wakanda as well as like, you know, white South Africa. But like black people doing it too. It's like it's so fucking bizarre.

[00:36:26] And it's like black people are oppressing all the white people around the world, which is what the right already believe. Right. It's such a weird. It's such a weird. And like, what's your point? You know what I mean? Like to even do to do a story like that. It's like, so what's your point? Just that everyone would always be mean to everyone. Like, well, that's not like what happened. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's not really like relevant, honestly. Yeah.

[00:36:49] I really, the main point of why these novels exist is that it's like a Romeo and Juliet story between a black woman and this noble white boy who like fights against this oppression. The black girl, black girl. They're both teens. And like the black girl helps them and stuff like that. Like, it's just supposed to be like Hunger Games for like. For race.

[00:37:12] For the Hunger Games for like people who have like weird issues about interracial dating that they need to work out. No, no, no. There was this young adult novel. If you like, I swear if you Google it, like it comes up because a bunch of people wrote about it. And this was the plot. It took place in a post-Sapoptica future. And because there was so much sun, the people of darker skin were valued because there was a lot of sun because global warming.

[00:37:42] And the white pale people were oppressed and had a terrible name. It was like pearls and coal. Yeah, that's another one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They got a TV show out of fucking knots and crosses. So it was a black woman who wrote it. So congratulations to her, I guess. But yeah. So getting to Lovecraft Country episode two, what did y'all think? Because I absolutely love this episode. There were a few, I had a few quibbles, but we'll talk about that in the bad section.

[00:38:11] We're going to do good, bad Lovecraft for, you know. The good, the bad, and the bleep. Yes. The good, the bad, and the bleep. But the Lovecraft is, when we did good, bad Lindelof for Watchmen, that was all the weird shit that sucked that Lindelof did. Good, bad, and Lovecraft. It's going to be all the weird stuff this show does that's actually good. Because Lovecraft, good weird. Lindelof, bad weird. Okay? Yeah, I liked it, actually.

[00:38:38] You know, I don't know really what to say other than, like, I'm kind of, like, I'm drawn in by the world. I think that, like, the scenes, like, are all, like, pretty well accomplished. And, you know, I don't know. Like, I haven't been finding this show annoying. The only thing I'm finding annoying about this show is that, like you said, Leslie, that it's called Lovecraft Country. Like, I kind of just am like, okay, I wish that this didn't, like, have to draw attention to some Lovecraft thing.

[00:39:08] Because it is just a totally, like, kind of cool, almost with, like, there's, it's starting to veer almost into some, it's like a weird, like, gothic horror superhero story with magic or something. Like, it just is kind of like a weird, cool story. And so, yeah, like, I haven't read, I didn't read the book like you. And so I'm just kind of, like, I'm almost in the episodic TV thing of, like, oh, my, what will happen next? I'm really enjoying it.

[00:39:36] So I really quickly, like, watched the first one and the second one. And same thing. I was just kind of skeptical, especially after Watchmen. And I just find it enjoyable. I don't have anything really in-depth or complex to say about it now. It's just, it's well-produced. It's fun. Only big things, like Jack and Lizzie said earlier, which is it's weird to watch the show where there's, like, real shit. Like, you know, like, you know, sundown, like, you know, cities or counties.

[00:40:06] And you're like, oh, like, I'm glad these things don't exist anymore. I'm glad the absolute terrors of being a black person in America don't happen. Right, right. I mean, listen, like, I do think that, like, it's this weird, I can't help but feel like, as we're watching this, you know. And I do like the show. And I think the show is well-crafted. But there's a part of me that's like, okay, so we're in this moment when, like, black creators are, like, being allowed.

[00:40:34] Like, you know, this is, like, you know, Jordan Peele and everybody getting to make, like. And Misha Green. And Misha Green getting to make a big HBO show. And it's like, but maybe the only way you can frame it that doesn't, like, fuck up liberals too much and, like, shatter their brains. Like, all the HBO liberals do. Like, I feel like the only way you can kind of, I don't know. The only way you can get away with it is by sending it in the past. Right.

[00:40:58] Like, that's what I'm saying is that I'm like, it feels like that's kind of the common thread between all these shows is it's, like, delicately introducing liberals to the idea. Like, if HBO ends up doing a prestige and it ends up being a slow build to making all their viewers understand that racism still exists in America. You know what I mean? Like, if the fifth series down the line is, like, actually all of this is still happening, then I'll have to, like, stand up from my chair and applaud. You know what I mean?

[00:41:27] But right now I am seeing, like, the common thread of kind of liberal comfort going through these shows, which are, you know, about how racist America is. What I love, though, Leslie, you said this and you were like, the HBO shows, like, they do not want to make a show about a black protagonist unless they're basically, like, the protagonist of Nisekai. And in this one I was like, Leslie's completely right because it's the exact same thing.

[00:41:53] It's just like, he's just like a dude and he was in the army and, oh, actually he has special powers because his ancestor, you know, was, you know, his ancestor was a child who was a product of rape, essentially. Yeah, he was a magician. Of a magician. A magician. Magician, yes. A magician. So that's why he's able to have the special powers.

[00:42:15] Yeah, but I do want to say, like, I did think this episode did improve upon a lot of the critiques I had of the first episode. Let's talk about the good, what I liked about the show. And I'll start with the characters. I think the characters were just a lot more in-depth and interesting because they got this episode, 90% of it is not in the book. And the book is very simple. He finds his dad. He does the ceremony. He does the ceremony. It is an escape.

[00:42:45] And it's not nearly as dramatic. There's no, there's no, there's no appearance of the monsters. There's like all the weird shit that happens to the family while they're in the house. That doesn't happen in the book. Like, you could really feel, like, Jordan Peele's hand, like, actually adding in all the horror that was mostly missing from the book.

[00:43:06] And you could feel Misha Green, like, keeping the fucking pace going because she's very good at, you know, doing this, like, serialized soap opera type stuff. She reminds me a lot of Lee Daniels and Empire, which is, I don't know if you've seen Empire, but it is the fastest paced fucking show I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, they resolve plot points so fast. And they did the same thing in this episode. I think it actually moved a little bit too fast.

[00:43:34] Or at least I wish that they had premiered both episodes at the same time as, like, a two-parter. Because I think that worked, that would have worked a little bit better because the first half is just, like, not nearly as good in a pretty slow place. But I just really like, you know, getting to know the characters. And, like, I was actually getting to see them die a couple of times and go through shit. Like, they went through more shit in this episode of the show than they actually go through the whole book.

[00:44:01] You actually see them afraid and scared and in pain. And, like, it actually feels like a horror movie. In the book, they're just all, like, just mad about – they mostly are just, like, mad and defiant to racism in a very noble way and a very boring way, too. This was a lot more, like, interesting. It felt a lot more real. A lot more terrifying. A lot of it felt like get out, obviously, for obvious reasons.

[00:44:30] And I just, like, almost everything in the show I thought was pretty fucking good. One thing, and this one really stuck out to me, is in the first one you have a lot of emphasis on, like, Atticus, his family, like, the legacy of the family. And what really stuck out to me in this one is there's a lot of little dashes about, like, the unhappy family. Atticus, like, mentions in the first one a lot, like, his father was basically, like, an alcoholic.

[00:44:59] His father and the uncle have that, like, thing, and he's, like, oh, like, my dad was, like, physically abusive to me. And Leticia has that whole story about, like, being abandoned by her mom. And that, to me, like, was really, really powerful because I feel like in a lot of stories about, like, family, you don't want to talk about these aspects of your family where even if objectively you do love them. And they do mean a lot to you. There's damage and trauma that potentially has occurred that's been passed on. And that really, really stuck out for me because I honestly wasn't expecting that.

[00:45:29] I was really expecting this, like, you know, like, this wonderful noble family, you know, and they're all going to, you know, fight against racism. And to have these little moments, like, really threw me off, like, in a good way, definitely. Again, like, classic TV show stuff, I'm like, wow, like, people are, like, dying in this show, you know? Yeah, I thought that this episode was really cool. I like the kind of, like, art design of the, like, fucked up tower and everything like that.

[00:45:57] Yeah, I really like some, like, the animal carcasses and shit. Like, it's not Lovecraft and there's no need to call it Lovecraft, but it's just, like, a really weird... Well, actually, that stuff is much closer to Lovecraft. That's not in the book at all. Like, I guess, I think the meat is in the book, but, like, the tower isn't. Those robes aren't. Like, this... And, like, the little village, they spend a lot more time in it. So this, like, all that stuff felt like... That's not from the book. That is, like, Lovecraftian stuff. That is what you will see.

[00:46:26] You see the little town with the weird villagers and the nobleman who lives on the hill who practices magic. That's, you know, that's... I think that's firmly under, you know, the Lovecraft thing. I actually think the show is trying to live up to the name in the way that the book, like, never did. I'm so stunned to be involved in a fan cast for a show that, like, doesn't make me just feel annoyed and make my life horrible to watch. I'm so glad. I'm so glad.

[00:46:56] I'm so glad I can bring this gift to you, Jack. I'm so glad. Wow. Wow. Really, we deserve the credit, honestly, for, you know... I think so. We went through more than Jordan Peele and Misha Green did to get to this point, to be honest with you. Yeah. But, yeah, so let's get into the bad. And I really didn't think anything about, you know, this episode was bad.

[00:47:22] But the effects in CGI, not always the best. I think probably the low point was the snake penis. No, that was so bad. You gotta come up, first of all, you gotta come up with something better than the snake. And if you're gonna have a... Right. It has to look better than that. That was not the best moment. A little silly, yeah. But kind of, I did kind of like how also kind of, they threw so much shit at the wall in this episode.

[00:47:51] Not all of it hit, but it did make me feel like, okay, this is not a show that's taking itself so seriously. It's not really trying to be a prestige show. A lot of people compared it more to like a, you know, like a 90s show. It might look at that, you know, prestige sheen to it. But it like pastes like and feels more like, you know, NX Files or something like that. Which is the original concept of the show. So I think they did a... This episode did a very good job of delivering a lot.

[00:48:21] See, I'm supposed to be talking about the bad and I'm just saying how good it is. Like, there just really wasn't a lot to dislike about it. But the effects weren't always that great. Yeah, I agree. Again, I think that we're seeing like that JJ effects house kind of like glossy, sort of goopy look. You know, I guess for me, I'm like, it's fine for TV. Yeah, yeah. But it does have that JJ look. I like the vampire. I think the vampire dogs look really good.

[00:48:50] I also thought the cow giving birth to the vampire dog. I didn't really like that for some reason. Really? I always love like twisted shit like that. Hannibal had like weird like birth episode. And I don't know. It just felt like they could have been more twisted, honestly. Yeah, I was. Here's my thing. I saw it and they're like, oh, she's breech. I was expecting like a human or something really fucking weird. And it was just like a dog monster. I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, we had already seen the dog monster.

[00:49:16] So we didn't need to know how the dog monsters were like born. Get born. They could have shown us like a different monster or some shit like that. But now let's get into the Lovecraft. And the first kind of turn that this takes from the book is when, you know, they are, you know, at the end of the last episode, they were being chased by these monsters. Their car was destroyed.

[00:49:44] And they, I guess they get captured or something like that. And they wake up in this house where they're all happy because it's a very rich, nice house. I thought this was very authentic. I like that they were played the Jefferson's team. I don't know. That just seems kind of fun to me. Very fun to me.

[00:50:04] But immediately there's this weird moment where Letitia and Montrose don't remember the monsters, but only Atticus does. And it's like, oh, shit. Like what's going on?

[00:50:18] And Letitia starts to think that maybe like Atticus is losing it because he spent too much time like overseas in Korea, which is, as I said in the last episode, I wish they had, you know, talked about that more and more of his experiences, more of his, you know, dealing with PTSD. They really gloss over it in the novel. So maybe the show will do a little bit more than this. So I like that weirdness where like people are seeing different aspects of reality.

[00:50:45] The even though this is, you know, more ostentatious than Lovecraft gets, this is pretty in line with the adaptations that you see of Lovecraft like Reanimator or From Beyond. That scene where the the members of the cult are watching the family being tortured by like these nightmare beings who are like fucking them up. I really like liked that and thought that like, OK, this is weird. This is cool. This is worth being called in some even though it's kind of haunted house.

[00:51:13] See, it's worth being called Lovecraft. And I thought they really with the horror in general in this episode, like you mentioned like the tower and the meat cellar and the final ritual, too, I thought was like really cool as well. Where the house gets destroyed and all that. Now that all that stuff, you don't necessarily see like really big action set pieces in Lovecraft. But sometimes you do. And I think that was like one that would make old Howard Phillips a little bit proud.

[00:51:43] I think he would like that. Aside from the black people in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like you said, you know, the the like like the tower, the sort of like just this sort of very big odd stone tower in the middle of the town and also just the kind of like, you know, the townspeople-ness of it all. Yeah. That reminded me a lot of Lovecraft kind of feelings. Yeah.

[00:52:11] I so here's my whole thing because you keep being like it doesn't really feel like like Lovecraft. And I guess for me, like I'll give you a good example, which is so last year my carpool buddy picked me up and she was like, they're filming down the street from me. And I was like, oh. And she was like, I did a little bit of sleuthing and they're filming this thing called Lovecraft Country. So they're filming it down here in Atlanta.

[00:52:39] And it was until watching the show that I was like, oh, they don't actually go to the south. And I don't know, I guess in my head I just had such this idea of like intrinsic, like we're going places of evil racists are going to be. And I was like the south. And I do kind of appreciate to an extent it's like, no, there's evil racists everywhere. But I guess in my head, like for me, Lovecraft is very like the deep ones.

[00:53:05] And I always imagine like these docks and these like skeezy ass fishermen villages in fog. And I don't think it's because they filmed it on location here in Atlanta because you can bullshit anything. Like I've watched movies that are supposed to take place in L.A. And then like afterwards, like filmed in Atlanta. And I lived in L.A. I'm like, what? But sometimes just like to me, like it doesn't always feel like kind of in my head what I imagine Lovecraft is. And I should put it like this. I haven't read a ton of Lovecraft.

[00:53:31] So I think to me, it's just more about the idea when you hear the word Lovecraft, like what's popping up. And it's like, you know, the elder gods and creepy villages. Yeah, the Northeast, you know. Yeah, yeah. The Irish, the Italians. Yes, yes. Well, going into the short story we read, there's a lot of weird stuff about the Polish in this one. I've noticed. Wait, was there? Wait. Yeah, yeah. I noticed it. Which story did I send you? The one, the witch house. Wait, no.

[00:54:01] Wait. Oh, shit. Oh, God. Did you send me the wrong one? I sent you the wrong one. It was stuck. Oh, no. You read that really long one, too. Oh, that's Katie. I did my best. And Jose was like being like, hey, look at this. Hey, look at that. Hey, look at the puppy. I'm like, shut up. I have to read this huge story. I made a whole new. We read the doom that came to Sarnath. Oh, OK. Oh, no. It was a copy and paste error because I was going to have someone else on, but they couldn't be on. So I was like, OK, you got to read this one next.

[00:54:31] I was so ready to go when I was all ready to compare it to The Ballad of the Landlord by Langston Hughes. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I did the doom that came to Sarnath. But Jack and I will talk about it. It's actually one of the shorter Lovecraft stories.

[00:54:46] But I actually really appreciate it because if there's one thing that annoys me about both the book and the show is that mythologically speaking, the mythology of Lovecraft Country is just like Judeo-Christian stuff. But like you do evil stuff with it, right? There's that diatribe about like the Garden of Eden and Eve and Adam and all that shit.

[00:55:12] And like his penis turns into a snake and like just very like biblical like iconography being mixed in with some like Lovecraftian stuff. But the doom that came to Sarnath is just like pure like Lovecraft mythology where it's the story. It's not there's no real characters in it, really. It's just like him recounting like the history of the mighty city of Sarnath. And Jack, would you? I'm sorry, Emma. I sent you the wrong one.

[00:55:42] It's OK. I got some good. I learned all about Brown Jenkins. So, Jack, what did you think about? It's very cool. It's such a funny piece because it's like such a short piece. But it like, you know, it like it almost like covers like a thousand years. A thousand years. It covers such like a vast period of time. You know what I mean? There's something about the piece that makes like the people at the place feel smaller.

[00:56:07] Like it's such a it's such a a short piece, but it like feels like it contains so much time. And it like kind of, you know, gives you this feeling that like, you know, the place you don't matter to the place. You know what I mean? Like which is almost like the scariest feeling you can get from it is that it's like there's just like ancient horror that's like always been broiling around you. And like it was there to make you mad, like long before like you were here.

[00:56:35] You know, you know, you could call this story of people's history of Sarnith because it's actually the story about how the colonizers came and, you know, slaughtered the indigenous population of the great stone city of Ib. But they weren't quite fishmen, but apparently they were soft to the touch and soft to spears apparently.

[00:57:01] So the humans like just got sick of having these, you know, non-human, you know, people living in this, you know, stone city near them. And so they just eventually like at first they started a sundown town where they wouldn't allow like the the the lizard people to walk around at night. And then they just eventually like slaughtered every last one of them.

[00:57:26] And upon that foundation where they slaughtered all these indigenous people, they built, you know, this great megaopolis, you know, this massive city with streets, you know, lined with onyx. And, you know, everything, you know, the gates were made of gold.

[00:57:43] The throne was made out of a solid piece of ivory from some unknown massive creature like this completely, you know, massive, wealthy capital for, you know, all of humanity. They said at some point, you know, millions and millions of people were living in this massive city built upon this crime of, you know, genocide.

[00:58:05] But, you know, there was a curse placed on the city by the last by this idol that the fish people worship that they captured this idol from their city. And they put in their temple and were doing like desecration rituals to the idol. And then one night they find the high priest, you know, dead of fright. And he has scrawled towards doom on their altar.

[00:58:30] And so a thousand years later, doom finally comes to Sarnath and they wipe out all of the noblemen. And everybody else flees from the city and like they go across the globe and tell the world about this doom and how this, you know, this tragedy that killed all these people.

[00:58:53] And then when adventure brave adventurers finally come back to the city, they don't find anything but like an empty marsh and the stone idol there sitting in it. And it's just like a really just big epic story that felt, you know, actually less Lovecraft and more like Robert E. Howard is very is pretty much a Conan story where Conan doesn't get to kill anything more or less.

[00:59:18] Like usually at like you would like Robert E. Howard would tell this story about this, you know, ancient civilization. Then Conan would go and slay like the old God that's still living there. But that doesn't happen in this one. Instead, like just this great city that man built upon this crime is taken down. They do have to they do have their privilege checked eventually. And and they get their doom.

[00:59:47] I just really like, you know, how like seemingly effortlessly he just creates this completely made up, you know, thousand year history for all these towns and these places and all these people that don't exist. I just love this shit from like old school fantasy and horror is one of my favorite things to read. And yeah, there's a there's a real sort of eeriness. And it's very funny that you say it's like, you know, a Conan story where he never gets to fight anyone.

[01:00:16] It's a Conan story where like that the enemy never even like reveals itself. Yeah. You know, it's cool. Yeah. It's cool. It's cool. So so that was the second episode of Lovecraft Country. Please. Hey, I really hope it bleeped. I hope it's bleeped. I hope every single time we said Lovecraft, we're going to have to fire. Honestly, if it doesn't if it's not bleep this time, we're going to have to fire the producer. And then I don't know who the fuck is going to believe.

[01:00:43] Yeah, Lovecraft was a very at a very dark and and sad young adult life. And in my opinion, it made him extremely ignorant. However, he was able to turn that hurt and pain and that ignorance into a beautiful piece of art. Art that we were able to remix and and bring it into into current day.

[01:01:06] And to have it now as a mirror for us to look at ourselves as a nation to see, you know, where some of what are some of the reasons how we got to where we're at right now. I'm never more proud to be an artist and to have narrative like this to tell.

[01:01:31] Thank you so much for doing us the Lovecraft Country fancast. We are talking about episode three of Lovecraft Country. And we have a very special guest, someone who reached out to me because they like really, really, really were fans of the show. And this is a fancast and we want fans on.

[01:01:52] But very rarely do you find a fan as interesting, intelligent, insightful and funny as our guest today, because he's not just a fan. He is a star in his own right. The star of Live at Five on Twitch. Joe Hartzler, thank you so much for joining us. Wow. Thank you so much for that. That the introduction is just too much hype to live up to. But thanks for having me. Yeah, I am. I mean, I am a fan.

[01:02:22] I'm a fan. And I screwed up my last opportunity to be on the show so badly that I was like, I have to go back on. Let's talk about it. So we were going to do an episode, commentary episode on the Big Lebowski, keyword commentary. I mean, we're watching it while we do the show.

[01:02:41] And Joe, but he used to, in order to prep, because you're such a consummate professional, you watched the movie that morning to prep, to get all your takes in, to get your jokes in. But you didn't realize that we were going to watch the movie again while recording the podcast. I thought I was finally doing something right for once. And I like, I got up early. I went and got the DVD. DVD. I watched. And it's an epic comedy. You know, that's a long, not a short movie.

[01:03:11] It's good. But, you know, we've all seen it a few times. And then I watched the whole, I spent the whole morning watching. And then right before the podcast, I realized we were supposed to watch it live. And you were just like, I couldn't do it. I understand. I understand. I had to walk away at that point. You had to walk away from the project. But we're happy to have you here. Thanks.

[01:03:35] For episode three of Lovecraft Country, called Holy Ghost. For people who haven't read the book, this segment is actually based on the segment called Dreams in the Witch House. W-H-I-C-H. Which is probably the worst story in the book. And basically, it's about a house that is racist.

[01:04:03] But the owner of it is able to convince the racist house, like, is able to own the racist ghost with its own logic and get the racist ghost to kill these other racists that are attacking her. And then she becomes, and it's a black woman who is a landlady in the book.

[01:04:25] And she is able to convince the racist dead white wizard to help her turn the property around and blackly gentrify the neighborhood and stuff like that. So a very strange and not very good story in the book. It reminds me a little bit of that. The Flight of the Concord saw the racist dragon and suddenly he wasn't racist anymore.

[01:04:52] A lot of mathematics, a lot of angles, a lot of angles in mathematics. You return to the mathematics a lot in the book. Oh, no, Joe, I'm talking about the Lovecraft Country book. I'm out. No, that was a good take. We'll just save it later. You just chop. I'll throw my takes in at random and then you can splice them in where appropriate. That was good.

[01:05:20] You definitely read the story and picked up the cool parts of it. That was great. Joe, let me ask you, like, you reached out to me and said you really enjoyed the show. I hadn't seen you get so fired up about, you know, property before. Like, what is it about Lovecraft Country that got you so into it so early? Maybe it was you guys that posted about it. It was so I decided to give it a shot because I'm always looking for some. I like cool horror stuff. I don't like to watch a lot of I don't know.

[01:05:50] I haven't really liked a lot of TV lately and entertainment. But occasionally I do like to watch some something. And so I decided to give this a shot. And at first I wasn't sure I was going to like it. And then I was so drawn in and I came around so hard on it that I was like, I'm a fan. I'm a huge fan. The cast is amazing.

[01:06:17] I think it's spooky and cool and totally disturbing in all the cool ways. I generally, you know, I do agree. I do agree. But I have to say this is probably my least favorite episode so far. I'll get into why later. We're going to break it down to good, the bad and the Lovecraft in a minute. But just at a roundtable, you know, what overall did you think of the episode?

[01:06:45] I think you're the only one among all of us who've actually like read the book. So what it comes across is like this is sort of the more episodic episode because the first two are really setting up the world, the characters, the legacy of the family. And now you're kind of going into there's a haunted house and it's racist. So I feel like usually shows kind of like this where there's kind of an overarching pot. But for the most part, you know, they're going to have episodic episodes.

[01:07:15] That was redundant. But I feel like there's always a little bit of finding the footing, especially when you end on like that kind of bang to really set up the world. And it's like, what's next? Oh, there's a haunted house. Yeah. Which is not to say the one off episodes can't be good. Like X-Files, like some of the best episodes were standalone ones.

[01:07:38] But like I said, I think it's just the show trying to find its legs now that it's kind of committed to having actual like episodic, you know, ones that are wrapped up in one, you know, one episode. It's an episode of a lot today. I thought this was one of the more complex, though, because in my mind, the show is really a history, a history of like like black America. And it's like you can look at it in so many ways.

[01:08:06] And I thought this was one of the more complex one. One, it starts to deal with like because to me, it almost was like hinting at some like black on black violence. If I can use that. I don't think that term has been canceled yet, but usually the person who use it does get canceled. So use it with people. People, people use that term.

[01:08:30] And I thought this show took a moment to sort of examine that and put it in context and then go, no, what's really going on? Because there was like spoiler alert, folks. There's evil white monsters behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Let me also say this, that the scene at the end maybe dealt with some some very current events. How do you approach undiagnosed mental illness?

[01:08:57] You know, I thought some of the portrayals of like the ghosts and stuff maybe had a little little bit of glimpses of of suggested a little mental illness going on, like the one the one person especially. At the end, right, when they're like all in the basement, one of the first major ghosts appears. And it was like a black man appearing to be like suffering a violent mental episode, in my opinion.

[01:09:22] And, and you could see the group sort of have a question of how do we approach this person? Oh, especially when he gets like, like possessed. Yeah. Yeah. That's. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even. Damn, Joe. I didn't even see that. But yeah, I. You don't approach them like the cops do. Yeah. They just get. Yeah. Yeah. They get around and pray for them, kind of, or so exercise the ghost. Wow.

[01:09:51] Like, because if you call the cops, they obviously they if you're a black man possessed by a ghost, especially in like the 1960s, and you call this Chicago PD, they're just going to blast your ass. They're not going to care whether the ghost who possesses you is white or not, you know. There you go. Well, I mean, I guess like lately, you know, I've been trying to be a better, you know, more aware. And I'm also like looking at this as an actor, too.

[01:10:16] But like one of the things I think this show is doing well is like, again, putting things in the context of American history. It's like all this is going on in the context of cars honking 24 hours a day outside your house. Yeah. There's tons and tons of historical reference. You can read you can listen to the Vox Lovecraft Country podcast to run down all the list of references. But the one I think that people are most resonating with Emmett Till is in this episode.

[01:10:45] And there's like a Ouija board scene and they don't they'll name him, but he's wearing the same. But the actor is wearing the same outfit that Emmett Till wore when he was murdered. And and he asked the Ouija board if he'll have a good trip. And then the Ouija board obviously says no. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty dark scene. But Joe, before we get into the good, the bad and the lovecraft, I do want to ask you, since you mentioned. Yes, Joe, you are an actor.

[01:11:12] You have seen Joe in a number of your favorite television sitcoms. So I got Joe, I can't commercials mostly. You know, I mostly slum it in the commercial world. Oh, yes. And you also seen them in the commercials. But I want to ask you, if you had to play a role in this episode, which one would you go for? Which one would you want to do? Well, oh, my God. I mean, of course, you know, you want to be one of the leads. Goodness.

[01:11:38] But the prop, you know, this the other thing that's that's going on here is all the white roles are like evil. Yes. Inversion of the usual. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, somebody tweeted recently, Mano Agapian tweeted that some of these white actors playing racist roles, they sure do have fun with it. And I was like, boy, that is so I mean, what do you do?

[01:12:07] You want to be a good actor, but you've got to play this like horrible racist person. And I'm like, wow. Welcome to being a black actor, you know, up until now. Yeah. Up until now. Yeah. Like having to play some caricature of a violent criminal or something. Always. Always. So let's get into it. The good, the bad and the lovecraft. Now, I'll start off with the good. Besides like a couple of like kind of cheap effects. I like I didn't like the giant ghost head.

[01:12:37] I thought that was pretty bad. I thought that was about what and what with the snake penis last week. Besides that, I think like the visuals in this episode are like really pretty good and like pretty good horror. Like everything like just looks like actually kind of prestige more or less. So I think visually the show is like staying, you know, is, you know, doing the HBO thing. But it's also very scary.

[01:13:05] You can definitely feel it feels like it could have been a chapter from the get out universe. So I think the visuals largely in the show are very strong. I love Journey Smollett for baseball bat. Yeah. That was a great visual. No, she just because she looks stunning. She looks like a million bucks and she has that baseball bat and is just wrecking cars. But speaking of cars and going back to unsettling, that scene where she's in the police vehicle and they just start swerving around. Yeah.

[01:13:34] Flying. And it's so upsetting because going back like, you know, I think sometimes going back to what we've discussed, it's like, oh, these things don't happen anymore. It's like, no, like God knows how many. Yeah. No. And that's exactly where my mind went to. And it's very, very unsettling because you're like, no, like Freddie Gray and probably countless other, you know, you know, black people have probably died in this manner. So it was like a very intentionally unsettling scene.

[01:14:03] There has been some evolution on racism because, well, 15, 20 years ago, we were watching a show about how the cops who did rough rides were all like noble and great. And it was just, you know, the bureaucrats that were fucking things up for him. Of course, I'm talking about the wire and you can get. I knew you were going to bring it up. And you can. I knew it. I didn't even think about that.

[01:14:28] Joe, when I was on your show, you tried to ambush me with some wire defense. But I had David Simon's book right in hand so I can quote it. I actually think I quoted what he said about the rough rides in the book where he kind of like makes it like it's not that big a deal. So at least HBO has gotten to the point where they have, you know, people making shows now who actually realize that like rough rides are like bad.

[01:14:56] It's a bad thing to do, at least. And you have the Michael Kenneth Williams connection. Yes. And Michael is in it. Oh, and I think I'm going to actually put this clip on to open the show, but he had a really like beautiful statement about Lovecraft where he said, you know, they were talking like all the cast and crew and basically having all the black people explain why they're doing this show called Lovecraft Country, even though Lovecraft is racist.

[01:15:23] And like trying to protect HBO from getting any, you know, sort of flack about it. And Michael K. Williams said, you know, Lovecraft was a guy who had very unhappy, you know, childhood, you know, and he was able to turn all that pain and that hurt and that ignorance into something beautiful that we can all, you know, enjoy to this day in spite of, you know, his ignorance. I just thought that was really, you know, a really great way.

[01:15:53] I really like Michael K. Williams, not much of him in this episode, deliberately so because this the series is very like one character gets the episode and the other character gets the episode and the other character gets the episode. So that's probably going to be a pattern that's going to continue if it's anything like the book, which for the shape of the story is actually 100% the same as the book so far.

[01:16:19] It's just all the details within that they changed a ton, ton, ton about. The art direction and the the wardrobe is incredible. I mean, they're killing it with the period attire and all of that. I think visually it's it's awesome. It looks it looks awesome. It's been it's been great filmmaking. And what else was I going? Oh, the lead journey is incredible.

[01:16:46] And this is one of those things where, you know, actors get kind of a bad rap because of celebrities. But but, you know, a great actor, a great performance. It's like, could you imagine being a lead in a horror series? You're going through a lot. And that's that's why actors like have to like have a strong union that takes care of them and stuff, because this this person was put through a lot in this episode, especially, too.

[01:17:15] I mean, there's just a lot of physical acting going on. Yeah. It's Joe. You mentioned the union. You've been, you know, talking a lot about how the union is like not taking care of actors right now. I mean, my God, we see what happened to even Batman is no longer. Batman is now. Yeah, the actor playing Batman is not being kept safe by the multibillion dollar industry. Protect Batman at all costs.

[01:17:44] Well, and at least they were able to catch it on these sets and it probably still spread through the whole crew or whatever. But sets are incredibly like their cesspools. You're with a ton of people. It's a huge it's 200 people coming together and working 12 hour days and eating together, living together. It's it's a lot. What I was thinking, too, is I was like, well, that's great that like the celebrities can be tested.

[01:18:09] I mean, I don't know what it's like in everyone else's states, but a lot of like, you know, I think I got double checked this. But last time in Georgia, they're basically like they were trying to basically be like, don't come in unless you have symptoms. Like before it was don't come in unless you have symptoms or, you know, you were in close contact with someone who has it for a while. They were trying to be like, don't come in unless you have like literal symptoms. And it's something terrifying for me. It's like I could be asymptomatic and I don't know.

[01:18:35] And they're actively discouraging people for coming in unless they have like tangible proof. And so like must must be nice to at least be in a position where, you know, they're like, hey, we're concerned about you, man. We're just going to get tested every day, you know, just just to make sure we want to look out for each other. Like must be nice. Must be nice. And that's been one of the controversies right now is because there's currently like not consistent protocols for covid in place for commercials.

[01:19:03] But they're for commercial productions, but there are for like film and TV. And so some actors are feeling a little bit upset about that. And if you look, the states, there's just no consistency. I've been really following this and there's no consistency in commercials. They don't have to test. In fact, one of the places it's like they're giving people a questionnaire. Wow. So you're protected by a questionnaire. All right. So we're talking about the bad.

[01:19:30] So let's get into the bad of this episode. I already said I thought like the giant head effect was cheesy, but I feel like every episode so far has had one really bad effect to kind of keep the show honest. Just like it was like they almost like they almost do it on purpose just to like like just to let us know that. Yes, this is a genre show. That was actually something that Jordan Peele didn't like about the reception to get out.

[01:19:57] You know, people didn't thought it was so too highfalutin to call it horror. And I think this show is certainly, you know, still is really trying to be a horror show. But I think also is trying to do a little bit too much when it comes to the references to, you know, you know, rate real racist incidents like there.

[01:20:22] Like there was just I just felt there was a little bit too much in this show in too many references because you can't you have the reference to Emmett Till. You also have reference to, you know, these people, black people who are massacred. I forget the name of it, but it was like when they tried to move into their home and they were massacred.

[01:20:43] And like there was just like it felt like this episode more than the others were, you know, constant, constant references to historical, you know, racism. And then you get the rough ride. And just for me personally, like having all of that in the show, like having like nine or ten references is a little bit too much. I think maybe you can do two or three and get into the horror of the show, which was actually a really good idea. And we'll talk about it more in the Lovecraftian section.

[01:21:11] But I thought it was really interesting, the story they tell of like this evil doctor who did these fucked up experiments. But they really didn't focus as much on that as they did, like referencing other bad things that happened to black people in like real life. And I just thought that it went there was a little bit too much of it. Like every scene had at least like one historical reference. I think maybe just like if you cut those in half, the show is just a little bit better.

[01:21:41] There's a lot of kind of a racial trauma going on, like to the point where once there actually is the story of like, oh, the spooky house and the people were murdered. And you're kind of like, you know, jarred up by all these real life events that are going on. Yeah, it made it like less scary. Like actually like a really good idea that they had that's not in the book, but they kind of like buried it under this other stuff. Yeah, for me, I got to come at it as an actor. There's just not a lot of for me to dig into.

[01:22:10] I guess I'm the guy who gets his head chopped off by the elevator. So I got one scene where I lean against my cool Ford or my old Mercury and and then I get my head chopped off in an elevator. But, you know, there's just nothing for me to sink my teeth into. You know, honestly, they did cut from the book. They did cut the amount of stuff that the young racists get to do in this episode. They really did like slim down like the roles of those and tag antagonists a bit.

[01:22:40] But, you know, that's enough about the bad. I'm really interested, excited to get into the Lovecraftian because they turned what was in the book just like an old racist ghost into basically a reanimator. Like a like which is a little bit more Lovecraftian.

[01:22:58] Now, Lovecraft does not actually have ghosts properly, but at least these were like fucked up ghosts that had been experimented on by a mad scientist and pieced together in weird ways, which I think does count as Lovecraftian. Oddly enough, and like I said, I admit I haven't read a lot of Lovecraft, but going back to what I said last week, which is in my head, I have a very idea of what counts as Lovecraft. And it's just this kind of absolute cosmic terror that you cannot fathom.

[01:23:26] So, you know, ghosts to me almost feel like not at all Lovecraft. Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. That short story today that I skimmed was the only Lovecraft I've ever read. So I didn't know anything about Lovecraft. And I'm sorry to hear that this this this fellow seems a bit confused, you know, but good writer and and interesting. And I like his description of the house.

[01:23:56] And I think the house in this episode was quite spooky. And, you know, to get back to my point that I tried to cram in there earlier, I thought you got a little bit of a sense of some of the angles that they're talking about there in that short story with this house. It was quite. Yeah. So let's get into the short story. Dream the dreams in the witch house. Now, this is not one of the better or more well regarded Lovecraft stories.

[01:24:25] In fact, when August Duralis, who was a friend and contemporary of Lovecraft, when he read the unpublished version of the story, he told Lovecraft that it it it you know, it would probably sell. He could probably make money off of it. But it's actually a bad story. So that's even worse than like being unsellable. And Lovecraft reaction was like, you know what your response to that makes suggest to me that I might just be done writing.

[01:24:55] Like that's how like not good this story is is this is the only Lovecraft story where you know, because Lovecraft created his own like mythology and cosmology and all this stuff. He didn't lean on, you know, traditional monsters, no vampires, no werewolves and no traditional religion either. You know, there's there's there's some reference to Islam as a very exoticized oriental version of it.

[01:25:24] But dreams in the witch house is like the only reference to traditional Christianity in it. And it's because and in like the end of it, the protagonist like uses a cross to like kill the witch is one of the cheesiest things to like happen in a in a Lovecraft story. So I'm not a huge fan of this one's, but I am interested in what you all think of it. I enjoyed some of it. Like you said, it's not very typical Lovecraft. Lovecraft.

[01:25:50] But I have to say the ending with Brown Jenkins, the little creepy rat monster familiar, like aliening his way out of the main character. And that threw me off because in my head, like going back, like all the Lovecraft stories are like and what he saw was so awful. I can't describe it, but it made him go crazy. And here's this graphic, you know, graphic like death coming out at the end, which was excitable.

[01:26:19] And I was a little surprised because I feel like when you talk about the Lovecraft mythos, it's always Cthulhu this, Cthulhu that. And I'd never even heard of Brown Jenkins. I'm like, I don't know. I like I like this little dude. I want to see this little rat dude in in other things. Just a little dude, you know? Yeah, the little gremlin guy was cool. The little gremlin creature. I skim this one, I'll be honest. So this is the first Lovecraft I've ever read.

[01:26:45] And it was very interesting, good, compelling writing and very dense and descriptive and cool and interesting and spooky. But I did not read the whole thing. How you think how much did you read and how you think it turned out? I read about enough. I skimmed the whole thing. To realize that someone died at the end and, you know, that's about it. Did you get a sense of why he died?

[01:27:14] I got a sense of that he was being haunted and he was having spooky dreams. And I got this idea that by the end he was found dead with some marks on him and no one rented out that place much. Anymore. That is actually a really good summary. I guess that is pretty much every horror story, too. I'm a fan of horror movies. About what happens. Yeah, I've never been a big haunted house person.

[01:27:44] As far as movies go, I always skip any kind of haunting. I've seen a lot, but they're not my, you know, my favorite type of horror. They're just something about a house that, like, I don't find that scary. I don't know. Like, if you have a house, like, you're good. You're doing good. You're doing good. Exactly. Yeah, a whole house. Tell me about, like, a haunted one bedroom. Then, like, that's a problem, you know?

[01:28:15] Now, I did want to mention one big change from the book that shows, I think, how savvy Misha Green and maybe Jordan Peele are, is that in the book, Letitia getting some money and immediately becoming a landlord is not portrayed. It's just portrayed as that.

[01:28:39] The TV show kind of dresses us up like, oh, she's providing low-rent housing for people in desperate— Yeah. Yeah, her art friends and people who desperately need it. And so they don't frame it as the book frames it as like, oh, what? They're just, you know, this family are basically just, like, these upply mobile black middle class people who are more or less escaping racism by embracing capitalism. Fully.

[01:29:09] So I really, like, they really, really changed the language around—I guess they couldn't get around the fact that she is a landlord, but they really changed how it was—the tone of it, as it were. They realized that, you know, being the first black landlord in, like, this neighborhood in Chicago is not, like, that great a thing to promote, more or less. Like, that's not an achievement that black people really celebrate.

[01:29:36] Yeah, this was the kind of low-income housing, you know, that's not going to, what Trump talks about, affect the home prices of the neighborhood. This is supposed to be because in the book it does say that all the white people move out after she takes—after she moves on the block. Like, all, like, white flight does eventually happen. I was like, is that a good thing? I don't know.

[01:29:59] It's not, like, usually we talk about white flight like it's a bad thing because it's, you know, because there's—then it's a flight of, like, tax dollars and resources usually accompanied with that. But the book is like, oh, like, that's a victory. Like, we drove all the white people out. So, yeah. Solved. So this is not—so the show that we're watching is not an adaptation of Lovecraft. Lovecraft. It's an adaptation of an— Not in any way, shape, or form.

[01:30:28] Of an adaptation of a book someone wrote. Yes. That was called Lovecraft Country even though it itself makes absolutely no further reference to Lovecraft. Leslie, it is Lino, Lovecraft in name only. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the show is adding back a lot of stuff.

[01:30:51] Like, I think it's really fascinating that they try—that they turn the racist ghost into Herbert West's reanimator. Basically, reanimator. Stuart Gordon's, you know, one of his greatest films that he basically said, hey, you know Herbert West? He's actually racist. I'm in the show. But, yeah. And I just—you know, I did enjoy this episode, but not as much as the others. But I'm looking forward to the next one.

[01:31:18] But, hey, they actually released it early for Labor Day weekend. So it's already on HBO Max. So, you know, if you're a fan and you're listening to this, you can watch the show now. Yay. Yay. Yeah, I saw you posted that. I'm going to—I will be watching that probably tonight. All right. Well, Joe, thank you so much for joining us on Lovecraft Country. Where can people find you? I'm doing my Twitch show, twitch.tv slash fartslur. We're going live right at 5 o'clock Pacific time.

[01:31:46] But we're going to be changing that to 8 o'clock Eastern if I can ever figure out how to pull up roots and move across the country during a pandemic. But also, here's some exciting news. First shots are in the can for a new Bug TV Plus pilot series that's supposed to be coming. It's looking pretty good. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I can't give—don't even ask me to try to tip what it's about. No, no, no.

[01:32:16] No spoilers. No spoilers. No spoilers. All right. That was Lovecraft Country. Thank you so much for listening. Peace. Bye. Thanks. Bye.

[01:33:03] Welcome to Lovecraft Country. I am Leslie III. I'm Emma Bowers. You know, she's one of my favorite people online, in the world, on the planet. She has a brand new podcast that's just coming out. Breanna and Joy Gray, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me, Leslie. It's always such a genuine pleasure. There's no one I'd rather talk about this stuff with than you. You have a new podcast. I have a new podcast.

[01:33:29] It's called Bad Faith with Virgil Texas from Chapel Trap House. That sounds like a string of completely random words. But we're really proud of it. We're really excited by it. You were just on our second premium episode. And the response to it has been phenomenal. We had such a blast doing the pop culture and political commentary, talking about the Kardashians and Jessica Cruz and whether or not I'm black enough to have an opinion about anything.

[01:34:02] Cardi B just filed for divorce from Allset. Your thoughts? I don't think that anybody is grieving that apart from perhaps her immediate family and friends. Look, we all love Cardi. We all want what's best for her. We want her to follow her truth. We know we want that WAP to put to good use. All right. These two episodes of Lovecraft Country. Episode 4, A History of Violence.

[01:34:30] And Episode 5, A Strange Case. The only thing I could say after watching these two episodes was that was wild. At both times. Episode 5, even more so. This show is so bizarre. It is a new thing. It's like prestige-sploitation. It's like trying to be this premium HBO show that's teaching you about history and stuff.

[01:34:57] And it's also the most bizarre, deranged, demented, sexual horror, racial horror that you can dream of. Body horror. All of it put together. I was talking to one of my friends today who described it as American Horror Story meets Eyes on the Prize. American Horror Story Coven, American Horror Story Election. No, American Horror Story Eyes on the Prize. Because that's what it feels like.

[01:35:25] And the way that American Horror Story is campier than it is really scary. That's definitely the vibe of the show. And I think that some of my criticism is because I haven't fully accepted it as camp. I don't know that it set its tone firmly enough from the beginning. And I'm just now slowly moving into the phase of grief that is acceptance. Yeah. Wow.

[01:35:55] The American Horror Story comparison. I didn't see it. But yes, that is pretty apt. Especially for the last couple of episodes. Ryan Murphy could have made episode five straight up very much in his au revoir. But I can see why I didn't see it and why you had a hard time accepting it. Because it doesn't really set a camp tone for a lot of you. Like American Horror Story.

[01:36:20] Even from the music of American Horror Story, the first few minutes, you know that it's going to be like a whimsical thing. And then you're even shocked that there's something horrific or violent happens. This kind of tries to start you off making you think it's just going to be horror. And then it shocks you with something like kind of bizarre or perverse. Yeah, and it's not even clear to me. I guess I'm not entirely sold on the idea that they are intending it to be as campy as it feels.

[01:36:48] There's a part of me that expected it to come closer in tone to Watchmen, I guess. Which has its camp elements, don't get me wrong. They have, you know, what's-her-name walking around with the giant blue prosthesis. They have like this absurd... It's a comic book show at the end of the day. But it deals with the weighty subjects in a weightier way. I feel like the Tulsa storyline was treated very seriously.

[01:37:15] There's nothing kind of campy about anybody hanging from trees or the really brutal Tulsa flashback scene or the mourning of family members who died in that process. I mean, all of that is treated with a lot of gravity. Whereas the racial terror that exists in Lovecraft Country, in some ways I feel like... I'm not going to say it's cheapened by its parallel with literal monsters.

[01:37:45] But by competing, I think, in the space with all of the monstrous stuff that's happened, I think that sometimes the racial horrors are kind of oversimplified or treated in the most like sixth grade textbook on racism sort of way. And the kind of simmering fear and anxieties that are the real way that racism kind of tends to play out are replaced with these kind of cartoonish examples of like a white man walking down the street saying, Hey, you inward, get out my way. You know what I mean?

[01:38:15] It's just... Yeah. It's really just so literal and heavy-handed at times. I can see that. But actually, I kind of like the fact that it does the racial stuff in a sillier, less serious way than Watchmen because it makes me enjoy the show more because I actually think like the monsters and that horror stuff is far more interesting than anything it really has to say about race unless it's combining the two,

[01:38:41] which I think it does fairly well in the fifth episode. But Emma, what did you overall think of the first two episodes? So I watched these two back-to-back and holy shit whiplash, like completely. I kind of assumed, and we talked about this a little bit with the haunted house story where I was like, Okay, it's kind of finding its footing here.

[01:39:05] I do kind of agree with Bree, and we talked about that a little bit with last week's episode where you have these very realistic, like, you know, atrocities going on, like allegories to like, you know, rough rides and stuff. And then it's like haunted house. And that's a little bit odd. So this one, I kind of felt like I knew what to expect. I watched episode five, which feels... Sorry, episode four, which feels very kind of goofy, kind of almost Indiana Jones, National Treasure-esque. And then episode five blew me away.

[01:39:34] And I don't know if you're familiar with the writings of Gretchen Felker Martin, but she always kind of describes her work as kind of filth core. And I was watching this and like, I was like, This is the shit I expect if I like read a story Gretchen wrote. Like, it's just weird and grotesque. And it's clearly like trying to say something else. And I loved it, but I was absolutely like horrified at the same time. Because I didn't expect the show, which was sort of like family having, you know, adventures and investigating the occult. And there's monsters.

[01:40:04] And suddenly just jumped to that. And I'm kind of delighted because for me, especially now, because I get so tired of everything being kind of stale and the same. And I was kind of delighted to see something that just made me so viscerally uncomfortable to watch. It went there. And I like that. I like that it went there. And that is the sort of thing that made me like Nip Tuck and the first season of American Horror Story 2. Like, it seemed like just really out there.

[01:40:31] It's like this, you know, it's on, you know, prestige TV, but is willing to do stuff that you only see in like a slucky B horror movie. That most people who are watching Lovecraft Country would look down upon. But this show is like big and it's on HBO. And it's just, I really like just appreciate like how kind of messy it is. I know it's not a perfect show, but I like that it's not perfect. I like that, like its flaws.

[01:41:00] And I just am really, really enjoying it so far. So now, Bree, I want to ask you, have you read much H.P. Lovecraft? How much did you know going into the show? I knew next to nothing. I knew that he was the tentacle guy.

[01:41:18] And I obviously saw the coverage that reported that he was very racist and that there had been this book that was attempting to rehabilitate or in some ways like translate and make available the better aspects of his narrative. By kind of whitewashing or blackwashing it through this black historical narrative. And that largely the show is based on that book's effort. Not true. Unfortunately. False.

[01:41:48] False. False. Look, I know you've been fact-checked a lot in the past few months, but I'm sorry I have to give you a double fib on that one. Not your fault. That was, you did sum up the marketing. But actually, the book has absolutely positively nothing to do with the original works of Lovecraft. Only in the most superficial manner. Well, no, I have heard that. I have heard that.

[01:42:14] But that the show is taking more from the book than from the original writing. See, it really changes, especially with these last two episodes, because most of these episodes are fairly original. And the show is adding a lot of Lovecraft stuff back into it that was never in the book. That's the thing. I think that's why I appreciate the show more than other people do, because I see like the Misha Green and Jordan Peele actually trying to live up to the name.

[01:42:43] They don't always succeed, but I think they're doing a pretty good job so far. But yeah, Tentacle Guy, you pretty much got the Lovecraft down. That's a good summary. And he was racist, yes. But episode four. Now, episode four is the Indiana Jones-esque adventure. In the book, it's fairly, it's much more straightforward, the adventure.

[01:43:11] For example, they don't find a ancient Native American god when they open up the vault. They just find like pages of the book and there's no like real big drama happening. But yeah, this episode, it really, it took a while for me to get going. But once it did, like I really liked the adventure aspect. Like I wish this episode was really just that last 30 minutes. I thought for the most part, it was pretty tense.

[01:43:40] It looked cool. The set looked cool. The special effects were pretty good. And when they find like that, you know, that decayed banquet and they're just bones and skulls coming back to life. I thought that was like really, really like good, cool ass shit. Okay. So I agree with you up to a point. But my criticism here is the criticism that I have of the show kind of more broadly, which is that it routinely sets up really cool concepts and then kills them off immediately. Immediately.

[01:44:10] So, you know, earlier on, I don't know, episode one, episode two, we're introduced to this mysterious person in a silver car. We end up at this, you know, weird house with all kinds of mysteries inside of it. And within two episodes, the thing is burned to the ground. And everybody who was a part of this kind of fascinating cult in line of like, you know, literally lineage of our main character is like gone and burned up in a heap as far as we know.

[01:44:39] So, okay, we are introduced to this kind of fascinating, genderless, indigenous character who is the embodiment of the unknown script that's going to unlock all of this cool stuff. They spend an entire episode trying to get to this person. And then the second they rescue them, they're killed. Yes. I'm doing all of the effort of the previous hour of my life.

[01:45:07] So, so I, I, that's part of what's so frustrating about the show is that I feel like I'm being jerked around. It can't quite decide if it wants to be a kind of a, had like a serial or what do you call it? Like a freestanding episodes that are like kind of wrapped up or have this longer arc over multiple episodes because things end as though they're self-contained episodes.

[01:45:31] But the story itself is longer and overlaps for multiple episodes and it's a longer mystery, but it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't incentivize me. It doesn't like, it doesn't earn some of the dramatic moments that it sets up, I think. Yeah. I agree. I think that's a fair point. And the thing, and the reason it doesn't bother me is because the book has this exact problem, but it's worse. It's like, it's, it's, it has this, it doesn't even set up like cool stuff. They just go in the vault and get the pages.

[01:46:01] They don't find, you know, this deity there or this ship or all this cool stuff. So yes, the show ends up killing off that character immediately, but at least it had the character. It's like, I guess maybe I'm giving it too many, I'm giving it, you know, a bit of a handicap when it comes to these things because the book is meant to be like, it's meant to be like the X-Files where you have most episodes are standalone, but there is an overarching mythology.

[01:46:30] And so like they keep spicing up the little episodes and making you really interested in them. But then that story is supposed to end and they're supposed to move on to the next thing and not, not really cover it anymore. At least that's how it, since they're following the broad format of the book. So I can see that frustration because that character, you know, was very fascinating, very interesting, interesting.

[01:46:54] And you don't get to learn anything about them really before they're killed off to move us on to the next episode. I also kind of felt like too, just you have this character who I found, I don't like everyone refers to like the character as she, even though the character says they're two spirits. So I'm not sure about the proper pronouns for two spirits. So I apologize. I'll just say they, but you can all can jump in the mentions, be like, that's not the proper pronoun. So it's this two spirited character.

[01:47:22] They're a victim of just a horrific genocide. And then they are just very suddenly and brutally just killed. And I understand ideas as opposed to kind of lead to other things, but it's just sort of very sudden violence done to this person. And I felt like it was kind of there more to shock and titillate than anything else. And so, like I said, I don't know, sometimes just for me, especially like characters like that who are marginalized, suddenly getting like brutally murdered. Just, you know what I mean?

[01:47:52] Like kind of a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah. Our reaction was definitely like, haven't they been through enough? Yeah. Yeah. Like, who is this for? Yeah. What I appreciate about it is like, okay, now you're really to show like how dark Montrose is, how far he's willing to go.

[01:48:09] Because the problem I have with the book is that the black family is just so noble and incorruptible and unbothered by their, you know, their getting close to this darkness. And that's the exact opposite of what Lovecraftian horror is. Well, let's talk about that because part of my issue is that I feel like they didn't earn Montrose being that evil. They set up that Montrose and Atticus have a troubled relationship.

[01:48:38] You get the impression that Montrose has a drinking problem and that affected his ability to parent. Got it. Story as old as time. Understandable. But Atticus really loathes Montrose. Really, really. And so we're like trying to figure out exactly why that is. And some of Atticus's reactions to Montrose seem to be disproportionate. And remember, we meet Montrose under a period of extreme stress and pressure. They've gone to basically rescue him.

[01:49:05] Montrose seems kind of like heroic insofar as he's tried to keep his family out of this mess. Yeah. And that he feels, you know, we see him in the process. We're introduced to him as he's mourning for his brother, having all of this guilt. At the same time, Atticus just like hates his guts. And we're trying to connect these things together. Like, is Atticus being reasonable? Then we find out that Montrose has been secretly living a double life because he's gay and closeted and not able to come out. It's the 1950s.

[01:49:34] And again, as a viewer, I'm having more sympathy for him as a consequence of this. Yeah. And then I discover he's just a cold-blooded killer. And then whiplash in the other direction. I discover that he's been having a sort of a long-term relationship with the bartender. They are not intimate enough that they're kissing on the mouth. And yet, by the end of the episode, I'm supposed to believe that he is a full-on participant in this glorious pageantry of a drag show.

[01:50:04] And making out with his apparently longtime partner in the middle of this room while sequins are raining down on him. And it was just like I don't even know where I am anymore. No, I agree with Brie completely because I hadn't finished the episode and I'm watching like this kind of not the perfect, you know, very flawed but still kind of endearing character of Montrose. And I tweeted and I was like, oh, Montrose is like, you know, old Joseph Joestar in this, you know, in this show.

[01:50:32] And then he, yeah, just kills a character out of nowhere. I'm like, no, wait a minute. But I agree completely where it's this level of how are we supposed to perceive him because there's like you said a lot of sympathy at the fact that he's a closeted man in the 1950s and he clears struggles of alcoholism. He had an abusive father of his own. And so I'm like, are we supposed to sympathize? Are we supposed to hate him? Like I agree, like it's sort of jarring all over the place.

[01:51:00] And it's a shame because obviously like, you know, he's he's played by absolutely, you know, like Michael K. Williams, like an absolutely amazing actor, you know? Yeah. And he's just an absolute joy to see. And it's like you can make him a terrible person. You can make him a very bad but sympathetic person. But I'm not sure how I'm supposed to view Montrose sometimes. Yeah, I can. I definitely see those criticisms. But I just for me, it's like these characters are so much more interesting than they otherwise would have been. It's like, OK, Montrose is a murderer now.

[01:51:29] OK, at least it's something, you know, it's something something going on, something, you know, interesting or screwed up happening. And it is worth saying that the show has like a very, very fast pace compared to other series. Like if like these first four, like the first like two episodes alone could have been like a half a season of like a Netflix show. They should have been. Maybe they should have been. Because here's the thing.

[01:51:58] I'm using this phrase, earn it. And I keep thinking about Watchmen because I didn't I didn't love Watchmen for like the first half of it. And I was like, what is this? I keep having to like Wikipedia after every episode because I can't figure out what's going on and who these characters are. And there was a lot of setup and I was unhappy. But at a certain point, everything came together. And when it did, it felt more meaningful because they had sufficiently laid the foundation for all of these relationships over time.

[01:52:27] And you can have a show that moves very quickly. But it's hard to both move quickly, I think, and deal with weighty subjects, which is why I sort of wish this were just more American horror story, the 1960s instead of American horror story, American racism. Because the racism, it's just like a lot. And I don't need Emmett Till popping up in random scenes. Yeah. To Ouija boards.

[01:52:56] And I don't need, you know, oh, I go to a bar and I guess Jackie Robinson sitting at the table just because. But like, it feels like, it feels like, my friend was like, remember that old episode of Quantum Leap where he goes back in time and ends up meeting like the great, great grandfather of Martin Luther King on a slave plantation. And there's all this heavy handed lingo like where the guy ends up saying a line like, now I feel like a king. Like foreshadowing whatever Dr. King says down the line.

[01:53:25] I hope my kid has a dream someday. I don't feel like you have to be the Forrest Gump of TV shows where, you know, the main character meets every famous person in the history of that decade to make the show interesting or to cover racism. Like, I know what happened to Rosa Parks. I don't need you to literally reenact Rosa Parks on the bus. You can come up with a different story and be creative about the racism in the same way that you're being creative about the monstrous things.

[01:53:51] You don't need to literally shoehorn legitimate historical events in there and have like James Baldwin and, you know, every other 1960s era luminary living in the boarding house for me to understand that there were talented artists living in Chicago in the 1960s, you know?

[01:54:14] No, I was going to say, I think you kind of make a valid point because Leslie always says like this is just so for like the white liberals, you know, and they can be like, wow, these things happen. So it sounds very silly, but I think sometimes for people who are watching, they do need to understand that there was like a thriving art community in Chicago. They do need to understand about like the pageant and the ball scene. I definitely agree, but I do sometimes feel like that's the reason these things kind of get put in, which is that was the big thing about Watchmen.

[01:54:39] And you had so many people like, I didn't know about the Tulsa massacre until I watched this one television show. I think that we can just acknowledge that the show isn't necessarily for a black audience. But at the same time, there have been all these, all of these, all of this literature about how it's intended to capitalize off of black Twitter.

[01:54:57] And so either it's admittedly not for us and fine, or it is, and you're going to end up getting a bunch of criticism about how it's kind of telling the story too exactly or too literally.

[01:55:13] And frankly, I'm really looking forward to next week when they're going to Korea because I'm like, well, even if they're handed heavy handed about Korea and the Korean war and Korean history, at least my personal knowledge of that isn't so, you know, full that I'm going to be like, oh yeah, like, duh. Every scene of rolling my eyes or like waiting for them just to get past the most obvious version of whatever happens. I want to talk about the Ruby story. Yeah. Wow.

[01:55:40] Episode five, strange case. Now this story is in the book, but it's, um, it's not, it's not gross. It's not weird. It's very like she is very, the transition is very easy for her to transform into a white woman. And it was written by a white man and it doesn't have all the nuances that are in this episode. This episode written by black women.

[01:56:07] It, uh, it's, I really thought this episode was very interesting and weird and gross and fucked up. Maybe my favorite episode of the series so far, it still wasn't perfect. I still think a lot of the, um, Lord, the stuff, the, the larger narrative is, is getting, is a little bit dull. It's just like, you know, holding pattern at Atticus and Leti.

[01:56:36] They don't really have anything going on. I think they, like, if anything, they should have let the, um, the two spirits person live for at least one episode, you know? And then, you know, we see her, we see them get killed, uh, at the end of, of this. So at least, you know, Atticus and Leti had something to do other than have, uh, angry sex, uh, in this episode. Which we should talk about eventually, but yeah, let's talk about Ruby.

[01:57:02] Okay, so Ruby, um, uh, Leti's sister, uh, she's become entangled with, uh, the male Braithwaite. Um, and, uh, she's, what did she say to him? Something like, were you trying, you trying to make me a kept woman whiteboard? Something like that. Something very on the nose. Yes. In the episode four, um, very direct, but, um, she wakes up and she is a white woman. And she's on the street.

[01:57:32] And again, another heavy-handed scene where, like, she bumps into a black boy and, like, the cops are, like, trying to shoot him on the street. Not saying it wouldn't happen, but it was a little bit, uh, heavy-handed. Oh, heavy-handed.

[01:57:44] But they kind of got past that and kind of got into this somewhat fascinating character study of this woman, Ruby, who is, you know, very upset because, um, she saw this, uh, other black woman working at the department store. She was the first black woman hired there. And Ruby thinks that she's, like, doesn't deserve to be hired there. She doesn't have the experience. She thinks, uh, she would be a better.

[01:58:11] And I think there's even a mention that she had talked to, they knew, they knew each other. And she had talked, uh, to this girl about applying there. And the girl told her, oh, no, don't apply. It's not gonna work out. They don't hire black people. And then she ends up, uh, taking the job. So we see how she uses this newfound whiteness to get a job at the department store, kind of put the needles to, you know, this other, you know, this other black woman who, uh, she had conflict with.

[01:58:41] And then kind of getting, and then it gets really dark and fucked up after that. I agree. Like in terms of it's been my favorite episode so far. And I think it's because it has a lot to say. I think obviously like, like as a white woman myself, um, I'm going to probably read something into it differently. But what I found really fascinating was just this level of like, Ruby is now a white woman. She has like amounts of privilege. She has never had. What does she want to do?

[01:59:09] She wants to go serve capitalism. She wants to work in retail. Um, but I do think there's something relatable, I think for anybody for trying to get that position, um, and having resentment for someone kind of on a similar place as you who, you know, we quote unquote, at least perspective wise, you know, didn't deserve to be there. And it was not being a credit to the race. Yes.

[01:59:33] And it's just sort of, I mean, in a way I almost feel like it would have just been, like if it was just a short story, like if nothing to do with Lovecraft, I still would have loved it. Because it goes so good where she rolls up and she's like, hello, I'm a white woman. I want to work here. And they're like, amazing. You're assistant manager now. Immediately. Immediately. And you can kind of see where she's kind of riding this high.

[01:59:57] And then when she talks to the girls and what goes from just kind of shady shit talking goes to like full on racism. And you can see it like she just suddenly realizes that I guess like just this level of what she thought this was going to be isn't. And just how absolutely ugly and nasty like people are, which I'm sure Ruby knows and understands. But it's something very different.

[02:00:19] I think when you're I don't know, like if it's appropriate to use the word passing in this time, you know, but I mean, it's something where she's essentially kind of passing. And what the people say in front of her is absolutely shocking. And then it gets more twisted and more dark. And then it comes down to the end where she's told by Christina, you're a white woman now. Like, what do you really want to do? And the answer is go absolutely violently, horrifically ape shit. Yeah.

[02:00:49] Yeah. So, okay. Okay. So we're supposed to believe, first of all, the Ruby's highest ambition in the whole world is to work at this store, department store. Now, I would like to believe that that ambition was limited in part by being black and recognizing that that was kind of the best job that was available to her conceivably.

[02:01:17] It was her reach school, as it were, you know, as a black woman. Not that in a world where all were equal, this woman's aspirations, this woman who is beautiful and a talented singer, like the thing that she wants to be more than anything else is to work at a counter in a department store. I think that that's probably a dream that is limited both by her race and her gender. However, when she becomes white, her ambitions stay exactly the same.

[02:01:45] Moreover, when she walks into the store and she's interviewing, the manager is like, gosh, you're so qualified that you could have my job. And he says that with no, you know, jealousy. He says that with no resentment, despite the fact that this is the 1950s. And there would plausibly be some gendered resentment, even though she was a white woman.

[02:02:04] Okay, so now once I accept that Ruby's ambitions are so meager, despite being given this kind of magical gift, then I watch her do a montage of what would it be like? What would you do if you could live your life without fear and be white in the city of Chicago? The answer is apparently to go buy ice cream and sit on a park bench and read a newspaper. Okay, she doesn't even go to like the white movie theater. She doesn't even like really spend that much time in like white only spaces. She literally buys ice cream, which apparently is free.

[02:02:35] She goes to pull out her money, but apparently being a white woman means you literally don't have to pay for anything anymore. She's not even like a super hot white woman. Do you know what I mean? I'm not trying to be funny, but like in the realm of TV where like sometimes like hot ladies get things for free, like she wasn't even cast in that way. She's a perfectly like attractive, like abnormal looking lady, you know? So they oversell it in those regards, right?

[02:03:02] Like being white isn't like a get out of free card, but it is a relative privilege and they somehow managed to mess that up.

[02:03:11] Then we get to the climax where she, I understand has this resentment toward the black woman, but I think is too, given the gravity of racial horror that exists in the world, the fact that she is at all torn between wanting to support and help this black woman against the racial onslaught of her racist white colleagues or join them in castigating this black woman because she's jealous that she got the job.

[02:03:37] Like it made me think really a lot less of Ruby who has a character I've been rooting for, but she would even hesitate to be on the side of the young black woman who got this job, who is not her enemy. And it's not her fault that she was hired over Ruby. You know, like it seemed obvious to me that they just, their policy, their all white policy ended. The skinny black girl was the first one to walk through the door. And so they gave her the job and like life is unfair, but that it doesn't mean you like partake in racial terrorism against this woman.

[02:04:04] And then finally in the climax, she gets her comeuppance by literally raping her manager in the anus with a high heeled shoe. And I'm supposed to feel like this is somehow equity for the manager. Yes. Like attempting to sexually assault the other black employee there. But like, I'm sorry, I don't believe in, you know, I don't believe in like an eye for an eye.

[02:04:32] Well, let me lay this on you. Okay. You are supposed to think less of Ruby. And what she does at the end is not supposed to be a just desserts revenge. It's her being absolutely corrupted by this power. At least that's my interpretation. That's good then because holy smokes. Yeah. I think you're, she's covered in blood and viscera.

[02:04:59] I think we're supposed to think she's become the monster now just because of her. Because that's what Lovecraft is. It's like you have these normal well-meaning people who get close to power and they end up being corrupted by it.

[02:05:13] So even, so whether it's, you know, the power of Adam or whiteness, because Ruby has been corrupted by it and gotten close to it, that ending is not meant to be, I feel, is not meant to be like a joyful revenge fantasy. It's meant to be like a, oh, she's fucked up now and she's fully accepting it. And she'll be possibly an antagonist going forward.

[02:05:40] I agree where I don't think you're supposed to like cheer and guffaw, which, I mean, I get it's kind of a common, like, you know, and I don't, I don't approve it. But like, I think we've talked about some other shows like, oh, the rapist gets raped. And it's like, yeah. And I think it is supposed to suddenly change because when she comes in and kind of starts like flirting with him, in my head I imagine something very minimal. I was like, she's going to kick him in the balls or she's going to like tie him up and open the door and be humiliated. And it goes so extreme and so horrifically violent.

[02:06:09] And I don't think it's like a girl with the dragon tattoo kind of scenario. We're supposed to like cheer. I think you're supposed to be like, I understand this man is racist. I understand he tried to rape a coworker, but it gets so insane and so out of over the top. And I do kind of agree. It's a level of going back. Christina says, what do you really want to do with this power? What? And I think the question is, what do you do with power? If you can get away with anything, what do you do? And the answer is for some people just like absolutely horrific. But that's part of it, though.

[02:06:37] Like the idea that if you're white, you can literally get away with anything. I mean, there's a big difference between being just unfortunately unjustly accused of crimes, unjustly accused of rape crimes in particular, getting longer sentences, all of the inequities in the criminal justice system that we understand exist and especially existed in 1950. There's a big difference between that and like white people literally having carte blanche

[02:07:00] in a way that is unrealistic and just oversells the disparity and I think undermines the whole project. And I would be a lot more comfortable with the idea of Ruby's on a journey where she's corrupted by living in white skin and corrupted by power and corrupted by all of that. If we actually saw that journey, if we saw over a series of episodes or two, a bunch of moments where she's put in a position where she's forced to either kind of stand up for

[02:07:28] less powerful people and in doing so give up some of her power and become increasingly empowered by her white skin and then come to a point where she's willing to side with the other side. But that's not what happened. What happened is we saw her kind of go back and forth and then see the black girl get assaulted, want to stand up for her and then perform that act of violence as part of a revenge narrative. You can't disaggregate that from the act of revenge, the way they set up the scene with

[02:07:57] her looking at the attempted rape, choosing to throw away her vial immediately thereafter, the vial of medicine that would have kept her white. And then like, you know, going beast mode basically and like busting through her skin and then going off the deep end. Yeah. And I think maybe this will add a little bit context to it and why I have my interpretations because in the book, like nothing like this happens.

[02:08:22] It's like, it's just at the end with the real, I don't, this might be, actually, I'm not going to say it because it might be spoiled for a future episode, but she finds out something that her ability to turn white comes at a cost to someone else. And so she's, that's the only real dilemma is that, oh, if I keep turning white, I'm hurting

[02:08:46] someone else instead of like being offered to, hey, now you have the power of Adam, you have magic. Now you can do anything you want. It's a very, you know, different type of story. And Bri, I think you're, you're right. And that it's not very clear about like, what's the difference between what's the white privilege and what's wizard privilege, right? Like it tries to do, like if you're a wizard, you can get away with like murdering people

[02:09:15] and assaulting people and doing all that stuff. Not just because you're white and this episode kind of tries to mix them too. Maybe it's not always clear which is which, which privilege she is exercising at which, which time. So I can understand how that's, you know, a little bit messy, but I'm for the, on the whole, like, I just like that this is a show about like magic and racism that doesn't like it.

[02:09:42] I'm just glad to show unlike Watchmen, like it takes itself so, you know, seriously and it doesn't really complicate the protagonist in any significant way. And this one is telling you, oh, the sister of Letitia, she's actually a violent rapist now, and she's still going to be around. She didn't die. She's not going anywhere and the show is going to have to write about this. Hopefully, I hope, I hope they don't just, you know, drop this, drop this storyline thread.

[02:10:10] I hope we continue to see how, you know, this is affecting her, how we saw a little bit about how it's affecting Atticus when he tries to like possibly kill Montrose in the beginning of the episode. Like, I want to see this episode, this show get dark, get dark with the main characters, show them being corrupted. And maybe, maybe it can have a happy ending in the end, but like, I would actually prefer

[02:10:36] if it kind of had a sad or kind of scary ending for everyone. Yeah, given what's happened so far, I guess I don't have a ton of faith. I mean, I know we're only five episodes in, but I don't have a ton of faith that those kind of character developments are going to be carried through consistently just because of what I've seen before, right? So going back to the relationship between Atticus and Montrose, you know, without knowing more

[02:11:01] about why Atticus hates his father quite so much, it felt like it's a big leap to go from, I find out my father's a murderer to I'm literally trying to kill him on the floor. And then later they try to clean it up a little bit saying, oh, I saw a part of, I saw something in me when I tried to kill him that I had seen in him when I was younger and that scares me. But that's the first time I'm discovering that there was ever any evidence that Montrose

[02:11:26] had a murderous instinct before, that Atticus knew that there was that aspect of his father that now he fears has come out in himself. Like, that's all like contemporaneous exposition. And to go get back to the kind of sex scenes between Leti and Atticus, you know, we end up having a second sex scene, which is more intimate than the first one, but they did nothing to explain why that first scene was so like aggressive. So there's all kinds of questions there.

[02:11:55] Like, first of all, regardless of whether or not she's a virgin, why was it so rough? Like, why did, why did Tick, why was it so rough? Like, why are they, why is their first time that like really aggressive bathroom scene? Why did it, what, what, what did it serve in this show? So it made me question like, it didn't seem in character for either of them. I felt like I learned something about Tick and maybe some pent up aggression that he has that maybe is something that's going to be unpacked later, but it made me think very differently

[02:12:24] of him as a character. And then their second sex scene started out similarly rough and eventually like, no, sorry, started out intimate and then like kind of roughened up over time, which still felt a little weird for this woman's again, second time having sex. Yes. Which happened in a garage, which at a house where apparently I think that little girl still lives just out in the open. It just, it seemed like a lot of it, I'm not a prude.

[02:12:54] I don't care about a sex scene. I don't care about an aggressive sex scene. I don't care if a character wants to gruesomely in a horror show, you know, rave someone with a heel. Like I understand that this is not, this is fiction and this is to create a mood and it's for an effect and it's to stretch the limits of the imagination. But I do want it to be consistent to the character as it's been painted so far. Speaking of aggressive sex, the sex scene between Montrose and his boyfriend, the bartender.

[02:13:24] So a lot of people, they're unhappy with the scene because it's another one of these scenes that we see in mainstream non-LGBTQ media where they portray, portray, you know, gay sex as inherently like violent, you know, and like aggressive in a way that's not natural. I saw several people, you know, saying that, especially with the scene with the heel later

[02:13:51] on to having, you know, that a sex scene between two men and then having like a violent, you know, rape in the same episode, which, you know, is a common thing in media to mix those two and always associate homosexuality with sexual violence. A lot of people were fairly unhappy with that in spite of the, what I thought was a very

[02:14:16] good scene representing something that was very real, ball culture in the 1950s. I thought that was like a very beautiful scene. That was one of my favorite scenes in the show. It felt like it was in a different TV show. I don't know what it really had to do with the story of Lovecraft Country, but it was fun. I liked it. It felt like I was, it felt like, it felt like a scene on a pose. I'm like, oh, Michael K. Williams and pose. Sweet. That's cool.

[02:14:42] But like, I really, really loved that scene, but it was just very, very disconnected for the rest of what was going on. The ballroom scene could have been precipitated by a conversation between Montrose and the bartender. I'm sorry, I don't remember his name. In which the bartender says, look, I want you to come somewhere with me tonight. And Montrose gruffly answers, I don't know about this. He's like, please, how long have you been talking, singing each other? Just once. I just want you to experience it.

[02:15:12] It was like this one time to set some foundation, you know, that Montrose is closeted and reluctant to participate in some of these more flamboyant aspects of the bartender's life. But that one time in a moment of vulnerability, he's willing to step into the bartender's world. He sees what it's like to be in a space where everyone's open and accepted and finally feels ready to kiss his partner on the mouth after all of this time.

[02:15:38] Like, I could, like, it would have taken like one two-minute scene to lay the foundation for why the ball scene was part of the emotional journey these two characters were on. Instead, we got a wham-bam, thank you, ma'am, sex scene that seemed to be graphic for effect in a way that isn't necessarily... I mean, I'm not gay. I don't want to speak to how anybody else perceived it. But it almost felt like, not gratuitous because you can have, like, there were gratuitous same-sex sex scenes throughout.

[02:16:07] But, like, intended to cause a reaction at the expense of having an empathetic response or titillating response to these two characters being intimate with each other in a way that almost seemed exploitative. And then a hard, like, whiplash to a scene where we, yes, enjoy the color and the pageantry and the frivolity of this ballroom scene, but in a way that feels very attenuated from the inner life of any of these characters.

[02:16:37] And suddenly we just see Montrose, who has up until this point shown little to no emotion, twirling around in a very cute, translucent, red button-down shirt, like props to the wardrobe department. All the outfits are fantastic throughout this show, with red glitter falling from the ceiling. And then we're just supposed to intuit that he's had some kind of emotional breakthrough after 50 years of life and is now prepared to be in a more intimate relationship with his partner. Like, what? See, I am watching a scene right now, and I get it.

[02:17:06] Because Michael K. Williams is just that good. He pulls it off just with his face. He says maybe five words in this whole episode. He says nothing during that scene, but you see, like, his fear and his hesitation in the beginning. And you just see him looking around like he just doesn't know what to do. And you see him kind of soften eventually and be surprised.

[02:17:34] And I think the scene worked. Certainly the conversation you suggested, Bree, would probably add to it. But I feel like the show moves so fast, and I appreciate that it's a show that moves fast. It cuts a lot of corners that other shows just don't. And I personally prefer the cut in the corner. I don't necessarily need that scene. But it's making choices. It's making a choice to say, we have screen time for this.

[02:18:04] Oh, they definitely waste time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have time for this sex scene. Yeah, yeah. And that, it's okay. So I understand having to be judicious with your time. But like, they chose one to prioritize one over the other. And I think that they would probably defend it. And I know that there's a lot of, you know, gay men that write for the show. And I'm not trying to speak for them or what people broadly in the community feel like is a good way to spend the time. But like, the same way I felt about the Atticus and Letty sex scene.

[02:18:34] Like, art has, you know, it's supposed to be art. It's supposed to have like a purpose. It's supposed to advance the plot or tell me something new about the characters. Unless it's like Skinamax. And okay, we're just going to accept that, you know, a side boob is a side boob. And that's what we're here for. Well, I think that is a part of the show. That's another thing I like. It is trying to shock. It is trying to titillate in a way that I think, you know, most HBO shows do. They just pretend that they don't. Like, they just pretend, like Game of Thrones.

[02:19:02] Like, you saw boobs every episode. And you saw penis every other episode. Like, that was a part of it. So it is Skinamax as well. But it wasn't at the expense, at least into the later seasons. It wasn't at the expense of plot and character development. I definitely see. I understand your objections. But I just, I still really ended up enjoying it. This episode especially a lot. In spite of the flaws, you know, that I just think it had a lot going on with it. Maybe it didn't nail it 100%.

[02:19:32] But like, I think things like how good the effects were on the skin transformation multiple times. They made it look good when in the first episode they had like that awful CGI snake. Like, it clearly, like, they had some good, you know, practical effects too that they are giving us now. What did y'all think about, there's so much going on in this show.

[02:19:56] What did you think about probably the most important scenes in this show for the narrative when Ruby has to go undercover at like the fucking wizard hall and sees all that bizarre shit? Because every time, you know, every time like someone's like, oh, there'll be a, there'll be a, you know, price. I'm like, I always get anxious. I don't know. Because if someone was like, hey, you can have this thing you've always wanted, but there'll be a price. I would say no immediately. I'm like, no, I wouldn't do it. So I get really anxious whenever a character agrees to it.

[02:20:27] And it kind of goes into this thing where I told Leslie this. I was like, if this show is kind of like X-Files, then is Christina the cigarette smoking man? Yeah. Because she's just sort of constantly kind of coming in, dropping these little tidbits of information. She's clearly an antagonist, but she's not outright aggressively in your face evil. Well, she's the cigarette smoking man and woman. Yeah, she is. Whoa, spoilers. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, she is. Secret smoking person. There we go.

[02:20:55] So in kind of going back, it's one of those things where, you know, she goes in and there's all these like evil wizards and there's just some poor mutilated man in the closet and she's watching it. And she hasn't really been a part of the adventure. Tick and the others have been on with the crazy cults and the literal grand wizards and everything. So it's kind of insane to see her reactions because she's very much been thrown into this. And there's that, is he like a sheriff or police guy or something? Yeah, he's like a police captain. Yeah.

[02:21:23] And he has, and I couldn't figure out like if it's a weird body graft. Is he just like a Buffalo Bill sicko and he's just wearing like a black person skin? Like, and I think you're supposed to be shocked and be like, what is this? But I remember being like, oh, what the fuck? Yeah. So that, well, I've been able to surmise. So the doctor that we saw, I think his name is Hiram Epstein, who is basically Herbert West's reanimator.

[02:21:50] The ghost doctor from episode three, he was doing those experiments on those black folks in order to perfect the procedure of swapping out bodies, which some of these police men slash wizards have done. And the captain has swapped out his body for the body of a young black man, perhaps one of the black men that we saw as a ghost in the other episode. Okay.

[02:22:17] So it's just like more like get out, but more body horror. Yeah. Get out, body horror, get out. Exactly. Wait, how do you know that he's going into, he's making himself black as opposed to, I presume that he had somehow something through magic had been turned black and that he was working his way back to white and using the man that was strung up in the closet for parts to re-whiteify himself. No, I was thinking, I know. I think I was thinking, you know, he did it deliberately to give himself a younger body. Not that he wanted to be black.

[02:22:47] He doesn't want to be black. He, his extremities are still white. He just wanted like a young body. And so he swapped out parts for a young body and happened to be a black guy because this show is Lovecraft country. So everything has to be, has some racial element to it. So you don't know that the guy in the closet was for parts? Uh, no, no, no. I don't know what was going on with the guy in the closet. He'd seen, like, it seems like he was, uh, might have been part of it too or something.

[02:23:14] It was hard to tell like exactly what was going on. I think they, they talked about like they were interrogating him for something. They wanted to know. Oh yeah. He, they wanted him to talk. They wanted to talk about something. So I don't, I don't. Well, if he's missing his tongue, that's not going to work. Yeah. Yeah. They said the debt, they said something like the dead always talk. Um, so he's doing some kind of necromancy, uh, to him. So they always talk, the dead always do. So I thought he had pieces missing, but I'll reserve judgment. I'll trust. I think he has pieces missing too.

[02:23:44] So he could, I feel like he was a guy who was like a part of it. And then, you know, I don't know. He's maybe. Okay. So you're telling me that this police chief guy is getting dressed and in his closet where clothes live is hanging a white man that's been cut up for parts, but you don't think that he's actually like, and one part of the room is a man putting on clothes with half black skin and half white skin. And in the closet is a white man's skin.

[02:24:10] And you're telling me that you don't think that he's using that man to re to, to dress himself white again. No, no. I think that just guy has just gone through the same, a similar procedure of some sort. At least I think, I don't know why he would keep them in the closet. Like that's not a sterile environment. Like if you, if you were getting by parts for someone, you would not have them tied up in your closet. No, you would have them in a nice environment where they're getting like moisturized, well fed,

[02:24:36] you know, no, you know, no, uh, antibiotics, no, no steroids. You're like, you're going to make sure that body is healthy. So I don't think he would treat his body part guy that badly. Okay. Well, it is magic and there's a lot of gross stuff going on the show. I don't have, I didn't have, um, part of the issue was that that part you're, you're right. That for the plot, that was an important part of the show in terms of my, me as a viewer, it felt like a blip that almost didn't matter.

[02:25:06] And that I kind of didn't even care about the thing that I'm most excited about is Letty being let, sorry, as a Ruby being let into the world of magic, because it's frustrating to have half the characters in it and half the characters out of it. And it's part of what's causing there to be a divide between the sisters and their ability to communicate and share everything with each other. Right? Like Ruby's super mad at Letty because she thinks that their mom gave Letty money and not her. But now that she knows about the blonde lady and all of that, they could have an open

[02:25:34] conversation about the truth and maybe come closer together. Assuming she goes and talks to Letty, I'm kind of curious now because I feel like, um, Christina's kind of got her hooks into Ruby now. So I'm curious to see like if Ruby will come over to Letty and kind of, you know, compare notes or if Ruby's kind of gone off into their kind of monstrous world. Yeah. I feel like the point that what Christina is doing is trying to turn Ruby in a way that

[02:26:04] she can use her against Letty and Atticus if necessary. Yeah. I think that's fair enough, but I am excited for the prospect of everyone being on the same page again, even if they're being pulled in different directions. We also haven't talked about the Letty, sorry, the, um, is her name Christina as a white girl? Yes. The, the, the, the blonde white girl and the, the blonde guy being one in the same. Yes. Just like Buffy the vampire.

[02:26:35] That reveal, um, was maybe one of the most interesting parts of the show, but again, we got it in the last like 10 seconds and who knows how far it will be dropped or carried on, uh, given that the show tends to have really exciting things happen that they don't necessarily do a lot with. Yeah. I, again, I think you're probably right about this because in the book is just the guy. There is no Christina. And I was kind of surprised that, you know, that there was a Christina in the show and

[02:27:03] like, Oh, why is there two of these great wife characters? The whole point is that he is the last of the line and then is him and Atticus are, you know, kind of firing it out, you know, these, uh, distant cousins. Um, and what ends up at, I guess in the show, they just like, Oh, Christina is, you know, is the guy, but she's really Christina, but she can transform into the guy.

[02:27:29] So I, it kind of adds a complication to it because since she's a woman, she's not allowed into the sons of Adam. So she had to use the potion in order to be, uh, turn herself into a man in order to gain more access, uh, to the sons of Adam. And I, I just thought it was like, by making this essentially making the character a woman, they were able to add more of this commentary about like that there was the oppression

[02:27:56] that white women face versus the oppression black women face versus, you know, how, and this show especially talked about like the white women's complicity in Oprah in, you know, white supremacy and, you know, the, uh, the emptiness of that proximity to power. I, I, I really like, like this change, but I, Brie, I think you're right. We're probably not going to see that much more of the, uh, male, uh, the male character.

[02:28:26] I forget his name, but yeah. Yeah. And then we don't remember his name. And I, I too, I like that it's a woman. I like her whole story arc, but I'm kind of curious to, about how it works in the book now, because in the, in the show, the whole point of why they need Atticus is because there's no, like he's the last heir not participating. They need his blood. He's apparently the direct line or whatever. And they need him. If, if, if the girl is a guy, if the woman, if the blonde woman is an actual man in the story

[02:28:55] in the book, then why wouldn't they have just used him for everything they use Atticus for? Well, the, the book, it, it really does not explain why the Braithweiss were still like, still pursuing the family so much. Like they kept running into each other. Like it's seemingly on accident. It was never really clear. Like why Braithweiss was always like in, uh, the Freeman's business other than the fact that, um, he wanted to, you know, of course he's a wizard.

[02:29:24] He wants to get more powerful and eventually, uh, eliminate Atticus as a competitor or take power from him, something like that. Um, but I imagine it's probably going to play out pretty similar, uh, pretty much the same in the show, uh, from now on. I don't think it, William is the name of the character. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see him, uh, show up that much anymore. Now that the reveal is happening. Well, good, because I, I didn't buy Ruby falling for him in the first instance. Oh, come on.

[02:29:51] You didn't think he was, you didn't, you didn't think he was, you know, very charming. Oh, that scene was so painful. There's a lot of black, you know, you're not the first white man to try to make me a kept woman. Like it's so heavy handed. And there's so many times where she basically says a perfectly fine line, a dialogue and then ends it because I'm black, because you're white, because there's racism. Like we get it. Like there's subtext here. Like we, we understand. You don't have to spell it out for us.

[02:30:21] Like it's a children's picture book in every scene. Like it's, it's acting. I will say this though. What I did enjoy about the scene is, um, Ruby is, I try to be careful when I say things like bigger or plus size people, because I don't know, it's just, you read like, cause I think it's someone where you're, if you're sincerely like, you know, like, um, a fat person and it's like, oh, I can't believe they have a whole size eight actress on the show. It can be very diminishing.

[02:30:48] But that being said, um, Ruby is beautiful and she, she looks like a human. Uh, but that, that she's not skinny. And I was very delighted that there was a sex scene with somebody who was not like a skinny little model. Um, and it's not done as like a joke or anything like that. So for me, I was, I was kind of delighted to see that. I hear that, but they, I've noticed that they never showed her breasts. The second that she became white, she was full on naked running through the street. There was, there was definitely, and I don't know if that's the actress's preference.

[02:31:17] She wasn't comfortable with the nudity on screen and I'm not judging it either way, but I did notice, like I was, I was looking forward to how they were going to handle that too. And it seemed like it was a much more modest theme than some of the other characters have been engaged in. And I was looking forward to those scenes myself. And I just, it didn't seem plausible to me. Like Ruby, I understand that there's a colorism dynamic with her sister. I understand their size, size, size, is a dynamic, but Ruby is also like extremely beautiful.

[02:31:48] Like she's extreme. And like the idea that she would like go for this like random white guy out of nowhere, like who just like hits her up and apart. Like I understand she's at a low point and she wishes she got this job, which again, I'm really having trouble believing that this woman who was a stunning, gorgeous, talented singer who the whole town seems to admire for her entertainment value, right? Like she is, is playing gigs and is a, is a small local star of some kind that she is

[02:32:17] feeling that her ambitions are so low and that she's feeling so, to have such low self-esteem that some random white guy strides up to her at a bar and dangles a kind of vague promise at her. And two seconds later, she's having uncomfortable sex on his wooden stairs. Like I just, who does that? Like, I, I, I thought that like, you can't write Ruby like she's the sassy independent woman. You know, I put sassy in quotation marks. Like that's, that's like the role she's playing.

[02:32:47] I'm a sassy independent black woman with a mind of my own and all these ambitions. And then find her to be so easily seduced into what exactly? And to like agree to all of these promises and this bargain, the other half of which goes completely unspoken. It's not smart. And I thought that she was a smarter character than that. I see. I agree. But I have to say, this is a horror show. And if everybody was smart, they would never get any trouble.

[02:33:17] You got. Okay. But have you seen Cabin in the Woods? Cabin on the Hill? Okay. Cabin in the Woods. I have seen Cabin in the Woods and I don't like it. Those people are smart and the show has to outsmart them. And they still end up destroying the world. So how smart were they really? Yes. But that's what makes it pay off. I want to see. I want to see. I want to see. I want to see. I want to see. Yeah.

[02:33:44] I definitely understand that criticism, but I, it's like, I understand all the critiques of the show. Everybody's making very fair critiques, but a lot of them just make me like the show more because having to deal with Watchmen where nobody was willing, where I hate the show and nobody else was critiquing. It's like, finally, people are willing to admit this show is imperfect. And for me, that makes it perfect. Leslie, I think you're just grading this thing on the curve because you've read the

[02:34:13] book. I had to read the book. Leslie, I feel like it's like, it's like, is it the book? And is it Watchmen? And if it's like, it jumps that bar, it is delightful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something the show does that is extremely Lovecraftian. Every single sex scene is weird and gross. Lovecraft didn't talk about sex at all.

[02:34:38] But the way the show approaches sex with absolutely complete and other like alienation is very, very, very Lovecraftian. It pathologizes seemingly all sexuality in one way or another, which I think H.P. Lovecraft would actually be very pleased with.

[02:34:58] I resent a little bit the idea that to understand the show fully or to appreciate it fully, I have to do all these background reading materials. That was my problem with Watchmen as well. I was like, why do I have to read literally like four articles and my thoughts explainers to just figure out what happens in this episode? So I will join you in critique of Watchmen on that, but you have to be willing to share it with. Lovecraftian. Lovecraftian. Lovecraftian.

[02:35:28] All right. So the Lovecraft story we read was The Thing on the Doorstep. Now, this is one of the less well regarded Lovecraft stories. But unlike the one we read last week, Dreams in the Witch House, I have no idea why. This is one of my favorite Lovecraft stories, actually.

[02:35:53] Yes, it's a bit more traditional and, you know, a bit more cinematic, as it were. Maybe not cinematic. It fits more as like it could be a really good episode of The Outer Limits, I think. But that's kind of why I love it. It's a little bit more straightforward. It's a story about fake friends, somewhat, where this guy is told from perspective.

[02:36:22] I think the narrator is unnamed. And he's talking about his best friend, Edward Derby, who he has apparently shot in the head recently. And he says, I didn't do it out of hatred for Edward. I did it out of love for him. I did it to avenge him because the thing that was actually living in his body was not Edward. It was the spirit of his wife who had swapped bodies with him.

[02:36:49] And that spirit actually was the spirit of her father, this old ancient wizard who has been living for, you know, over 100 years swapping bodies. And his plan is to continue to swap bodies. And the narrator kills Derby in order to prevent this monster from continuing because unfortunately he was not able to save his friend before that happened.

[02:37:19] So I was telling you this before we got started where I hadn't read a lot of Lovecraft before we got into this. And like I said, I think I told you, I read, I think the one of the fish people Innsmouth. So I think I read that and I think that was it. So I keep reading these stories and thinking they're really cool. And then we get on and you're like, this is one of the most hated Lovecraft stories. I'm like, I can't see myself hating any of them unless they're like a really racist one that you know. Oh, some of the racist ones are pretty good. Oh, no.

[02:37:50] Yeah. So it's really, really good. The only thing I had a big problem with is they mentioned that Edward was 38 when he married his 23-year-old wife. Like, whoa, Lovecraft is canceled. Fingernale emoji. But I'm just loving all the stuff. Going back, I'm kind of like Bree. I was like, he was the tentacle guy. And I was kind of growing up at a part where Cthulhu was kind of like a meme. It was like epic, dark-colored Cthulhu and bacon, you know. So it's really fun to go through these stories and see all these words and things.

[02:38:20] I'm like, oh, I know that. Like, that's a Lovecraft thing. So like I said, I'm not like, oh, I have like a really in-depth critique about it. He just tells like good horror. I love that he always has this balance between just the creepiness and the unknown. But some still do something really grotesque like Edward showing up with the knock. But it's not Edward. It's this like mutilated corpse. Of his wife. Yeah. I really like this one.

[02:38:45] I picked it, obviously, because it also covers body swapping. And this one, it just is a really like terrifying one when you think about it because they tell the story where the woman, when she was in school, she would like stare.

[02:39:06] She would be able to hypnotize her classmates and swap bodies with them and like make them send them into her body and vice versa. And it would fuck them up because they're like, you know, they have no idea what's going on. And she would just do this as like this sinister little game to people. And it's like, it's a really dark story. Throughout the story, Edward keeps telling his friend like, hey, my wife is body swapping me.

[02:39:34] And she's taking me to underground labyrinths with like where like evil things live. I saw a fucking shag of please help me. And his friend is like, my word, Edward has completely lost his nerves. If anyone were to hear this, they would send him straight to the insane asylum. Oh, what shall I do? Well, I called upon him a month later. Like he just, he really like does not believe it.

[02:40:04] He's like, hi, Edward. I'm so happy you reached out, but I'm in emotional capacity right now. Do you have time to hear about Eldritch horror that may disturb your peace right now? Like this is like he was trying and trying to get that emotional, emotional, you know, labor from his friend. And he was not in the space to provide it until it was too late.

[02:40:31] And all he could do really was to kill his body. But what we find out from the story is that just killing the body may not be enough. That old evil wizard may still be living and taking over bodies. And it's just a really great Lovecraft story. I don't know why people dislike it, but I absolutely love it. All right. So that was Lovecraft Country. Bree, thank you so much for joining us.

[02:41:00] Where can people find you? You can find us at Patreon.com slash Bad Faith Podcast. You should also be super sure to give us a quick five star like and review if you can on iTunes because the K-Hive is after us. They've already started bombing you. They've already started. And they've also taken down our Reddit page the same way they took down Chabos.

[02:41:30] Oh, that's a blessing. That's a blessing. That's a blessing. Look, the Bad Faith Reddit page is going to be all sunshine and rainbows in good faith. Because me plus Virgil equals a perfect median warm fuzzy place. Oh, that's wonderful. People should definitely listen to Bad Faith. We're really hopeful that this is a place that's funny enough to keep your interest, but is a kind of chapel that even your mom can listen to. Politics and pop culture.

[02:42:00] We can get the podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. But also, if you want to hear Leslie and us, cut it up on our most recent episode. You'll have to subscribe on Patreon. And I think it's well worth it. I really had a lot of fun with you, Leslie. Oh, thank you so much. Now, our listeners will kill me if I don't get this from you right now. Oh, no. Deep Space Nine episode of Sesh Trek. Are you in? To do an episode? Yeah. Of course. Yay! Okay.

[02:42:30] All right. We just had to, I had just want, it's sad for the record, and it's not been Bree that's been the holdup. It's actually been Jack and I because we started like trying to pick episodes to watch for the show, you know, so we can have kind of a basis. And we just decided to watch the whole thing, more or less, because it's so good. DS9 is so good. You should pick some anyway because I'm trying to indoctrinate Virgil.

[02:42:56] We're like slowly going through this process where he makes me listen to his things and I make him listen to my things. Sort of calling them boy things and girl things kind of ironically, but I feel like all of my things are boy things. Yeah, basic podcast bonding. So he had to watch several episodes of the Kardashians for our last episode to commemorate the ending of that season, of that series, rather. And next time I told him I'd give him something a little bit more palatable, and I think it's going to be DS9. That sounds awesome.

[02:43:26] All right, folks, that was Lovecraft Country. Talk to you next time. Peace. Bye. Bye-bye.

[02:43:32] Hello, everyone.

[02:44:08] Welcome to Lovecraft Country. I'm Leslie III. And I'm Jack Allison. And today we have a very special guest, someone who I have wanted to have on the show for quite a while now. She is a comedian and writer and the host of a podcast that's coming up soon on all your platforms. It's going to be called TV I Say with Ashley Ray, which means, of course, our guest is the wonderful Ashley Ray. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.

[02:44:38] I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited. I can't think of anyone else I'd rather talk about Lovecraft Country with. The show is, I need your help. I think we're all going to help each other day. All right, let's get into it. So we're going to be diving into three episodes today. Episode six, Meet Me and Daigou. Episode seven, I Am.

[02:45:03] And then episode eight, Jack, could you pull that up for me? Yeah, Jack, could you do that one for us, please? I couldn't. The Last Jedi. The Last Jedi. No, no. Wrong thing, wrong thing. This show, I can't find it here. I can't find it on Google, so I'm not going to be saying it.

[02:45:33] That one is called Jigabobo. Yeah, yeah. We'll get into it. First thing, as we're asking all our guests this, how familiar were you with Lovecraft before watching Lovecraft Country? I really didn't know much except, you know, the genre. It was sci-fi. I had read a short story by H.P. Lovecraft in college that I hated because I was like, this is super boring and racist. Do you remember which one? I do not remember.

[02:46:02] I cannot tell you. I think it had time travel, maybe. I feel like it was one of those stories where I was skipping every line to just try to kind of get through it quickly. And you just skipped to all the slurs. Yeah. I just would kind of bounce around. They kind of stand out, you know what I mean, if you're scanning. I feel like in the story, you know, that we read, it just gets very boring details. Like he's just describing things you don't care about at all. And then he'll just be like a mongoloid anyway.

[02:46:33] And you're just like, wait, what? Can we get a little more detail on that? Maybe I have a few questions. I do like old sci-fi where it's like a really long description of something that has now been around for like 200 years. Like it's like, you know, like bubbling water or something like that. Yeah. Just like, oh my gosh, it's amazing.

[02:46:53] And so I really didn't know much, but I was I knew enough to know it was exciting that a black director, a black cast was taking on this story and they were going to do something really different. So that was what kind of like sparked my interest was, OK, this thing that I never really was interested in because it seems so just white and boring is finally going to, you know, interest me and we'll see what happens. So let's get in to the episodes. First, episode six, Mimi and Daigou.

[02:47:23] This episode might be my favorite episode of the season so far. And I think it's because it's the one that absolutely has nothing to do with the original book Lovecraft Country. Yeah, this episode is completely this is completely original. There is not the Matt Ruff, the white man. Yes. Who wrote the Lovecraft Country book had nothing to do with the story whatsoever.

[02:47:48] So it felt like really interesting, authentic, creepy, new and kind of just stands on its own. And like this could have been just a movie. This episode could have been just like a really interesting horror movie. And I kind of wish we could see more of G.I. Her her story before she gets wrapped up into the larger story of the show. But like this is just a it was just a really wonderful episode.

[02:48:15] I wish every episode was a little bit more like this. I have to agree. I think it was the episode that gave me what I wanted and thought I was going to get from the show where you were going to see the sort of sci-fi black takes on traditional horror tropes, you know, with with sprinklings of, you know, racial commentary to make it really relevant. And you got all of that in this episode. It was amazing. The movie could basically be like a Korean horror film.

[02:48:45] It's it's great. Yeah. But that's what I feel like I often want from other episodes where they they don't tie it to that sort of history. They don't tie it to, you know, sort of larger tropes in cinema or TV. It's just kind of like, isn't it isn't this racial thing shocking? And can't we just kind of pull on that? But here they actually tied it to this really interesting story and history. So I thought it was one of my favorite episodes, too. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:49:14] I thought that this episode does. Yeah. Was one of the episodes that is like working better for me as this show continues. I am finding myself like not interested in the like lore or ongoing. Like, I don't really like the ongoing storyline, but I kind of like all the disparate pieces and I kind of like like the imagery. And I like I really wish this was like an anthology horror show. It's kind of how I feel watching it. Yeah.

[02:49:43] I like what you said about lore, because I think this episode gives us that lore. There's clear rules. Her mother's aware you got to get out of sex and murder. A hundred guys. I'm in. OK, that's lore. But then when you look at sort of the other side of it, what's happening in Chicago, it's so disconnected. There's no like what what lore is behind like someone taking this potion to do this. And there's no real time. And then also you're just screaming, like, why are these people talking to each other? Yeah.

[02:50:12] We're not connecting any of this. It is kind of weird. You know, it feels like some of this stuff would work in anthology. But since it's an ongoing story, you are like, well, why don't the fuck that? Yeah. Like, why don't they talk to each other? Why don't everybody say like what all this weird shit is going on? Yeah. Like why? Like, you know, like, oh, hey, I found this like a magic golden thingy in your house and I just took it. Just going to play around with it for a bit. Those things maybe we could communicate.

[02:50:37] And this episode, I mean, you just kind of get to step away from all the things that don't make sense. And in Lovecraft Country, and you just got to enjoy a story that did make sense. I understood there was a beginning, a middle and an end. I wasn't just kind of like, what did that mean? They didn't use any just like random inserts of a monologue to make up for explanation or plot. So I enjoyed that in this episode. It was an actual story. Yeah.

[02:51:06] And I do want to say like the politics of this episode were probably the best of any episode because it displays like what you rarely see what violent anti-communism is, was and continue to be. I really like that show, especially when you compare it to something like Watchmen, where like the most violent anti-communist in all the multiverse, Dr. Manhattan is like

[02:51:34] portrayed as just like a really loving black father, too. And he just says, he's sorry for colonizing Vietnam. Well, also, Damon Lindelof like kind of thinks that the Vietnam War was like good in some way. Yeah. I think he's like part of that generation that thinks it's sexy. You know, there's like that that baby boomer. There's like some of them who are like, oh, man, thank goodness we get Ken Burns documentaries because of it. The aesthetic of it.

[02:52:02] They like the aesthetic of people listening to rock and roll like in a jungle. Everybody's going to go see that Aaron Sorkin, Abby Hoffman movie. Like they're the people who already have their tickets for that or whatever. The Doors song playing over helicopters is really what people like. That's really what people like is the Doors and helicopters. Helicopters. Honestly, it's the only reason I saw Da 5 Bloods. Sorry, that was a black film. They didn't use the Doors.

[02:52:29] It was Stevie Wonder. Insert a 60s black band there. Yes. What's going on, perhaps? Yeah. But yeah, so this one, I really, really enjoyed it. It just seemed like so complete and whole. And when Atticus pops up and shoots a woman in the head, I felt like I learned more about that character than I did the previous five episodes. Like immediately.

[02:52:57] It was to me, it was the first episode. He's a real person and not just because I feel like up until now, we only know that he's so smart and so amazing because Leti is telling us all the time. She's just always telling us. She's just like, Atticus is so smart and oh my goodness. Atticus is so brave. He did this. We don't see it, but I trust her enough that she's telling me this. But then in this episode, I actually saw it. I didn't necessarily believe the romance aspect.

[02:53:27] I was a little like, really? You guys just fell in love that quickly? Okay. But hey, war's crazy. But it was the first time that I was like, okay, now we understand this trauma he's carrying and what he's trying to make right and what he's kind of running away from. Yeah. I did buy into the romance just because I like Gia so much and she seemed to believe in it. And she's like- You killed her best friend, yeah? Yeah, I know. Sistas before mistas.

[02:53:55] Like if I'm the friend and I'm in heaven, I'm mad. Like I'm like, no, use your weird octopus pussy or whatever to kill this man, you succubus. Come on. But you know, revenge is never the answer. I think we're supposed to learn from her story. But yeah, I mean- If a capitalist shoots me in the head, get revenge. It's for me personally. Don't date him.

[02:54:22] Don't date him if you're a succubus. Yeah, sure. You can sex it, but to kill him only. But yeah, I did like the character enough where I was like, okay, I can understand why she would find this connection with him. I guess we'll see later what they do with that character. I hope they do more with her.

[02:54:48] But I just hope that she's not the sort of one-off romantic interest where at best we can say we learned more about Tick. And we're kind of like, okay, there was a succubus and that was a cool episode. I just, you know. It's kind of weird because the characters in the book are just like so flat and uninteresting and have nothing going on. Really, in the show, they have a little bit more going on.

[02:55:13] But still, the original character, Jiha, is so much more fully formed than all the other characters maybe put together in this show. So she is just the most interesting character so far. So I hope she does continue to be like- Yeah. It was really cool when they let Letty do magic for that episode. She had a moment and then they forgot about it, I guess. I don't know. It happened. You moved on. All right. So I think we all liked that episode. Yeah.

[02:55:40] But I'm curious about what we all thought of episode seven. I am. Now, this story, loosely based in the novel, it's based on probably the best story in the novel where a kind of similar theme where Hippolyta finds the orrery and she uses it to travel to these different worlds where and it's kind of a journey where she kind of discovers herself. Now, there's nothing like-

[02:56:06] She doesn't become like Xena warrior princess in the book or anything cool like that. But in the show, she does. But I really enjoyed a lot of the visuals and the themes of this episode. Yeah. But I didn't really understand the point. The point basically seemed to be to write off Hippolyta. It just seemed to be like- There's some cool black culture things we want to plug that we didn't get a chance to mention.

[02:56:37] Yeah. Let's throw in some time travel. First of all, very negligent. So I guess what isn't clear is like while that episode is happening, you know, other- Presumably everyone else is living their lives. So she has this ability to travel through time and whatever and her first thought isn't, let me just like go check in on my daughter. Let me just go like, she's good. Like, I don't- She's like, I'm gonna go see dead husband. I gotta go spend time with Josephine Shaker. Good times. Josephine Baker.

[02:57:07] Like, what is she, you know- That's the first thing she did. She spit like a summer. Yeah, also a month. Because she got those dances down. Yeah. And she was very good. And that takes a while. I would say probably six months. She's learning these dance moves. She's just hanging out. I mean, that was so- It was so specific too. Like, what's the one- And we had not learned anything about her-

[02:57:35] Yeah, if we had known like, oh, she wanted to dance or she had some connection, but it was literally just like, go under your head. Where's the first place you want to go? And you like freak out. And like, if I'd be like, bro, I don't know, MTV Nirvana unplugged. And now I'm stuck there for life. Like, that would suck. And I felt like, was that her situation? Did she actually care about this? What is she learning from this? Like, what is the point other than, wow, this is cool.

[02:58:03] But oh, it actually still sucks to be black. Which I think most black people would assume. Like, I never thought, oh, they could dance. So it was great. I don't- Yeah. I don't know what she was supposed to learn there. I keep feeling as I'm watching this show that I wish this was an anthology show. Because as you're saying, it's like, this all feels like so weird. Everything feels like so disconnected, like character-wise. Like, it doesn't feel real. I don't know.

[02:58:30] It's like, you know, you barely get to know these characters at all. And, you know, we're supposed to have this sort of like ongoing narrative happening. And it just doesn't feel like that engine is going. And so you kind of just wish that they could have just done all these, like, as one-offs. Yeah. It's kind of the original sin of the book. Because in the book, it's the same thing where it's these- And every character gets like one story to themselves.

[02:58:57] But you can't really do that necessarily with an ongoing HBO TV show. Which is more like a soap opera. But if this were an anthology, say, The Out of the Limits, this episode, we would be introduced to Hippolyta. We would see her, you know, outside the window looking at a dress. Maybe a dancer's shoes. And she's dreaming about what her life could have been. And then she finds the orrery. And then she goes on these adventures. And then that's the end. Beginning and end of her story.

[02:59:26] And they also, like, bring her back. So we're not like, did she just like- How long is she abandoning her daughter? How does time necessarily work in this? And I was also like, okay, so she at one point, like, is with her dead husband, George. And she's able to touch him and, like, bring him to space with her. They have their whole, like, beautiful black alien space astronaut moment. And I was like, wait, you can't, like, just hold him and pop him back to you to your original timeline.

[02:59:54] And just be like, I got a dad back? Right. Some of this stuff is just, like, it's odd because we're in an ongoing storyline. Like, it's like you forgive this stuff when it's just a little, like, short story. But it's like, I know that this person has kids. You know what I mean? It's like, you don't have any reason. There's no need for me to know this person has kids for this story to be told. You know what I mean? And it's like, now I'm just questioning, well, like, why wouldn't she go see how he died since she had so many questions about it?

[03:00:24] And why aren't they, like, trying to connect it to that? And maybe they will in an upcoming, but we don't. But it doesn't seem like there's much time left to say, oh, all of a sudden she's going to become curious about how her husband died and actually get tied to the main story. Right. It seems like, honestly, I think a lot of this stuff, it's feeling like this show is going to be a bit of a mystery box show in the end.

[03:00:46] You know, it is kind of feeling like, you know, where we're going to end up here is like they're going to kind of like skate by, you know, kind of look and feel and stuff and themes. And really, they don't have any idea of how all this stuff is tied together in the end. And that's how I felt really about this episode. It was a lot of just like beautiful moments, you know, especially in terms of representation on television. It's it's it.

[03:01:14] I think it does represent a standard and how we want to see dark skinned black women, larger bodies falling in love, doing beautiful things, dancing and enjoying life. And it's real good. She looks great. And it just seemed maybe more like the the show was more focused on that message than, you know, like a plot for a show. Yeah. Yeah. Especially like like the war. Yeah. The warrior sequence.

[03:01:39] It really is just like like, is she going to go back to Chicago and just know how to murder people? Yeah. Like what? Like you don't really it's not really explain what's going on there. The rules are where she is. Is this another planet? Is there a time? Is it? Yeah. Does she decide? Is it like and if you kill? Like, did she decide? I want to know how to fight like a really good warrior because that'll be handy or is it?

[03:02:05] You know, yeah, I think just they try to make pretty clear rules, I think, in the beginning. And it feels like, oh, we're going to understand this. They're going to travel together and they're going to explore these mysteries. And it felt very much like an anthology, I feel like, in that pilot. And now I'm just kind of like, I mean, I guess I can think of it as an anthology. I have because there are just so many things thrown in that I don't understand, like when they're underwater or whatever. And all of a sudden there's just like another moving speech.

[03:02:35] And you're just like, okay, yeah. You know, historic historical sentiment can, I guess, tell the story. You can just manipulate me with some good quotes. There is a lot of, you know, history hijacking. It's like HBO got addicted to that, like they taught their audience for the first time about the Tulsa massacre. And it's like, that's what the whole show is. And it's like, it's a little weird.

[03:03:05] Like I, again, and I think it's good and it is good that we're seeing that representation is good and everything like that. But you feel a little watching the show that I'm like, this is like four white people. Yeah, it's literally, it's like a few white people were like, oh my gosh, the Tulsa massacre. And now every black TV show has to have a like, oh, well, you know, they lost all their family in the Tulsa massacre. Like to like acknowledge, like we're a hip writer.

[03:03:35] Oh, it's all part of the black cinematic universe. Yeah. And it's just like, I don't know. I feel like the reverse of this would just be like making every white character be like, and you know, they lost all their family in 9-11. And to just constantly like draw that tie. Which would be funny. I mean, I, yeah. That happened often. You know what? I'm, if we make that trade, I'm fine.

[03:03:56] And if every white person TV show, even if it's like they edit Mad Men and all of a sudden Don Draper is just like, I became Dick Whitman after 9-11. Then I'm into it. Yeah. But I do want to say this show was actually started filming before Watchmen. Right. So it's not. So actually they, they could have been the first Tulsa show. Yeah, they did it for, but that's what makes it just so weird.

[03:04:22] Like somewhere a bunch of white people were like, oh my gosh, this thing you guys. And then they just started talking to all their black friends and were like, should we work it in? Should we, you guys think this would be good? Well, like it is so one-to-one because it's like, you know, HBO wanted to hire more black writers and that is a good thing. And there were more black white writers in these mostly white writers rooms. And I guess these black writers told these white writers for the first time about this stuff. And the white writers are like, whoa, that's crazy. That's crazy.

[03:04:52] They told them to read a couple books. They're like, whoa, shit. People need to know about this. Yeah. These HBO writers were like, holy shit, I've got to tell all the other white people about this. It's crazy. And I feel like that just kind of happens culturally. It's like there's a moment where some big black tragedy comes out, like the Tuskegee Experiments or something. And then you see it in like every show, like Grey's Anatomy. Like I think there was like an article about one of the last of the, someone in the Tuskegee Experiments dying, something like that.

[03:05:21] And it was like such a big thing that Grey's Anatomy was like, we're going to touch on this. Like that's what's been missing about medical racism is Grey's Anatomy's approach on it. So sometimes it's... Ellen Pompeo was a part of the program. Yeah. I mean, she can explain things like no one else. She is an incredible actress and I do love Grey's Anatomy.

[03:05:46] But I just feel like Lovecraft in this episode in particular really just kind of was like historical manipulation. Let's just get you crying over, you know, just the black pride. And I felt it. I did. But I also at the end was like, what? So she has time travel in her wrist? Yeah. But she said no because she couldn't integrate fully? I don't... What? But how was she doing it before then? Yeah.

[03:06:13] They should have, I think they decided to go... Because I really do think the show is pretty good at explaining most of the stuff so far and setting clear rules. And they tried to get a little bit more esoteric with this episode. And it just... It wasn't weird enough to stop you from asking questions, I think. Like, I want to know, like, what the Afro... I expected to know what the woman in the Afro was doing by the end of the episode. Yeah.

[03:06:41] Because it wasn't weird enough that couldn't be explained. And it also didn't really explain why Atticus and the white police officer... What happened to them? They went in the portal? Like, did the white cop also get to, like, go in a time travel romp? Yeah. Like, is he just stuck in a black woman space prison? Which, fine. Okay, that seems like a great situation... Like a purgatory for him, okay. But it just... I don't know. It just...

[03:07:11] The way they set it up, it seemed so exciting and good enough to have her going on this road trip. And very much, you know, in the world of reality, exploring this. And, you know, I was actually excited to see her deal with the real consequences of the police. And, you know, these things that her husband had to deal with. And instead, they made it just kind of this mythical story. Completely detached from reality. Where it's not going to really have much of a bearing on her character in the future if they don't want it to.

[03:07:38] You know, at any point, they can kind of just be like, well, she doesn't mention to anyone else that she danced with Josephine. And it can just be kind of wiped away, you know? Like, what is she going to go back to her daughter and be like, I hung out with your dad. We went to space. Fuck you. We didn't want to see you. And it was great. And so, you know, they're kind of just setting it up for just kind of multiple moments that are just meant to be enjoyed and forgotten. Which this character, I think, deserves more than that.

[03:08:05] And I think episode seven was the one that ended with the quote from Space is the Place. It's Sun Ra, which is this wild, mythical, blaxploitation movie. It is on YouTube. It is definitely worth watching. It's very fun. Unfortunately, the one on YouTube has all this erotic scenes cut out. But you can still see most of the fame on there. Censorship. Cancel culture. Run amok. Yes.

[03:08:35] All right. And so, episode eight. Now, this is an episode that a lot of people were talking about and got very mad about some of the things that happened in this episode. And I understand. I'm not as mad as them, but I understand. So, Jigabobo.

[03:08:51] It opens up with the funeral of Emmett Till, who is a character on this show that is apparently the best friend of Dee, the little girl. We find out in this episode that they were best friends. And her nickname for him was Bobo. Technically, that is introduced earlier.

[03:09:46] Or slightly. Yeah. Yeah. It's a choice. It's a choice. Yeah. I mean, with these things, you never want to be hypocritical about it. We certainly see people take real tragedies and historical stuff. I don't know if I've quite seen it about Emmett Till. I don't know how I quite feel about this. I don't want to say that you should never do this.

[03:10:15] But I would say that ultimately, I don't think it really serves the show so much. Yeah. It doesn't serve this show in the way that they do it. I don't really think they pull it off. And I actually think it really does distract from more interesting stuff that could be happening. I liked what you said. I'm not sure if this should be repeated because I think so many of the things they did in this episode, no one should do again.

[03:10:41] So, firmly just going to say, with some of this stuff, let's just not do it again. Thank you for trying it out, Lovecraft Country. But I think I'm... It's always good to give it a shot. To give it a shot. I'm going to come firmly down on the, okay, if you want to use historical characters, fine. But maybe we don't need a white woman to tragically reenact... Yeah. That one... That was interesting.

[03:11:12] So, lots to happen in this episode. So, Emmett Till is a character. His funeral, which is a historical event that people talk about, is something that all the characters go through. And the show kind of, in some ways, tries to deal with the trauma that people felt and black people still feel when these incidents of racial violence occur.

[03:11:38] But they also, like, toss in, like, magical sex and racist ghosts, too. Like, in the mix of, like, real trauma in a way that's, you know, not the most effective or cleanest transition. No, a very messy message. It gets very messy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This episode was, it's a little, like, just, it's just a little, like, gross feeling.

[03:12:07] This episode felt a little, like, gross to watch. Can one of you just tell me, what am I supposed to feel when this white woman gets out of the water and is like, well, that was cool. What am I supposed to feel? I think that's supposed to be us seeing Christina trying to check. I am not, this sounds like a joke, but it's not. She is checking her privilege. She got a lecture. Or she got a lecture. And they literally lecture about privilege. Yeah, yeah.

[03:12:37] She's seeing the word privilege. Which is, of course, anachronistic. I know, her saying privilege, I was like. That made me roll my eyes so hard. You know what, that made me feel like I was like, you don't have to, like, give this kind of shit to conservatives. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you don't have to, like, our media doesn't, shouldn't actually do, like, be like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was speechless, heavy handed, but they did undercut it immediately.

[03:13:03] I did like the fact that Christina just said, you know what, actually, Ruby, you're full of shit. You just were horny. Yeah. Like, you're full of shit and you're just horny and you feel guilty. I did like that. So, I'm still on the side of this show because I feel like any time it tries to get a little bit too fucking twee-y and sweet, it does undercut it. Like, all the characters are fucked up. They're not these, you know, bland, noble characters that they are in the book.

[03:13:32] They're all kind of, like, evil pieces of shit. I kind of like that. And that's what should happen in a horror story, a Lovecraft story. They should all be kind of bad people. Like I said, just the Emmett Till stuff just distracts from, like, what could be more interesting stuff. Like, the relationship between Christina slash William slash Ruby was pretty interesting aside from the heavy handedness of them too.

[03:14:00] I think there's, that would have been the more interesting thing to cover because this moment is supposed to make us go, could Christina really have feelings? Does she really care about black issues? Does she really care about this woman? Does she really, you know, that's what we're wondering. And she does undercut that whole privileged speech, which is like, okay.

[03:14:21] But then apparently it's like, okay, is she doing this whole Emmett Till experiment because she actually does care and she wants to experience this thing that she thinks will bring her closer to someone she loves? Which is bad. That's not, that's just bad. That's just bad writing. That's just bad. And instead, I think there's something more interesting in looking at their relationship and how, you know, they want to believe it's love. It kind of seems like love.

[03:14:47] But at the same time, if Christina really loved her, she would have given her the same power that she has. Like, she gives her the ability to become a white woman, but she herself has the ability to become a white man. Like, she's still very much keeping her undertow and is not giving her the full power or ability that she claims to be giving her. Because if she did, she'd give her the ability to be a white man. But she knows she can't do that because it would probably make her too powerful. So it's still this thing where it's like, she doesn't really love her.

[03:15:15] She's clearly using her and trying to keep her in this one position. And I think that's really interesting. But instead, it's like, she tries, she does some Emmett Till cosplay so that we think maybe she cares about black people, even though we know she doesn't and she doesn't. So there's something about the scene. There's something about any scene that's incredibly shocking and controversial and bad taste that I like a little bit as a horror. Right.

[03:15:44] Like, I like that they went with it. Some of the earlier stuff with like the chart scene, I wasn't too into it. But like seeing a white woman get like her ass beat and like as like, I don't know, there was just something like interesting about that juxtaposition. Do you think, do you think she tried to hire black men to do it first and they all said no? Yeah. That could have been a scene. That could have been a scene.

[03:16:12] She goes to a bar and she's like, you want to beat the shit out of a white woman? And they're just like, are you fucking crazy? Like, yeah, that would have been a scene that could have taken the place of like really directly talking about Emmett Till. Like there is something you could have done a lot of stuff in this episode that would have made more interesting. But I really on the whole, I think the episode just kind of spins wheels and wheels and doesn't much move the plot forward. Yeah. Aside from Gia Ha'a coming to Chicago. Yeah.

[03:16:42] And also that is so distracting that, I mean, we haven't even really mentioned that like Diane is in this episode or and she has like a lot going on, I guess. In the story, in the book, she's the main character. It's a boy in the book, but it's supposed to be, you know, there the child is haunted by these, you know, racist police wizards. But it doesn't really go anywhere in the book either.

[03:17:09] It's really just like a racist doll chases the kids around. And that's kind of what happens here. I think the monsters were kind of creepy, creepy looking and pretty good. But like, I didn't really know why he's like, go through the trouble. Yeah. It seems like this would have been a moment to kind of show how isolated she is. Her dad died. Yeah. And her mom is a lesbian in space right now. She doesn't. But I guess her mom is just gone.

[03:17:38] And every adult who is around and supposed to care about her does not care about her in this episode. Letty is just like, girl, shut up and go get some water. She's like on this like sidewalk. Oh, yeah. She's like choking. Are you okay, bro? Letty's just like, well, why don't you go make a sandwich? Like none of these adults care. And so it feels like a moment where we're supposed to really understand how isolated she is and how alone she is.

[03:18:07] But for some reason, it just doesn't really click. They don't. And I guess that's because there's this just incredibly distracting story where I'm like, oh, gosh, they're like doing the fucking body ripping apart sex thing. And you don't really focus on on the story of like this young girl and, you know, the abandonment. And she's also just lost her friend. And it actually kind of distracts from the entire point of the Emmett Till thing and the people who would be impacted by his death. And instead, we're just talking about a white woman.

[03:18:36] Like, come on, you fucked up your episode if that's what people are walking away with. Sorry. Yeah, it just like they didn't really seem to have a real clear narrative of the show. So this is this was the episode where they tried to where they made time between all the characters, but nothing seemed to really move or happen for any of them. Well, you did mention Gia got on that plane, I guess. She came such a long way to deliver three lines. Yeah.

[03:19:06] And then for Atticus to be like a complete piece of shit to her. And they and they fucked up her hair, too. Yeah, I just I think I guess, you know, if a succubus came to my house to deliver foreboding information that could save my life, I'd probably just yell at her so she couldn't speak either. And like that just it didn't, you know, I hope I like I said, I hope we see more of this character because it just doesn't make sense to use her this way and to kind of use her as just a prop to make Letty mad,

[03:19:35] which also doesn't make sense because I assume Letty knows he has a past and all of this stuff. So it's yeah, it's just like very much using her in a way that that that just sort of makes me uncomfortable and reminds me of, you know, earlier this season, we saw them kill a trans character for really, again, unclear, unknown reasons where it's like, oh, are they going to come back? Is this a bigger thing? And it's just like, no, it's just a moment that happens and you move on.

[03:20:00] So this just feels like, OK, did you introduce this whole storyline, this entire character in this world, just so she could come to Chicago and get yelled at by Atticus? Atticus is really like an asshole to her for like, look, yes, she did accidentally try to kill him, but she didn't want to be a succubus. Yeah, it's not like she. Yeah, and she didn't kill him, first of all. So, yeah, thanks. That's to begin with. Yeah. Yeah.

[03:20:28] Number one, didn't kill. And number two, I'd be if I met a succubus, I'd have a lot of questions. I just feel like he just really glossed over that. She was so honest about it. Like, I think she deserves a lot of credit for being like, hey, my name's Shia. I'm a succubus. I've killed 100 men with my pussy. I'm good now. I respected that. And instead, they just kind of shuffled her on and she delivered her lines that were basically just, you might die. I don't know. Okay. And then she's gone.

[03:20:58] And then he's just like, no, sure. You need to bounce. Yeah. Curb. Like, no, don't come here and tell me I might die, which also is a thing I already had had premonitions about. But I guess we needed another story to bring that. Yeah. Like the fact that Atticus might like he already like survived one ritual meant to kill him. Like, yeah, I don't know why the revelation that Atticus might die was like is like something that the show is trying to hang on.

[03:21:24] Literally every episode, that's kind of the stakes is that a character could die and he could be one of them. So like it really is a bizarre reaction that they have. I like I know that's like an easy plot, a premonition that character might die. But like if you're making a horror TV show, it's not that big a deal because characters are supposed to be there. Yeah. Yeah. But instead, yeah, I don't know.

[03:21:50] At times it just feels like they want to play it safe and they're afraid of sort of leaning into tropes of portraying black tragedy. They don't want to put their main characters in these positions of, you know, us seeing them be hurt or tortured in horrible ways. But at times it's like you just got to you got to go there. You're in a horror movie. You know what I mean? You're making a horror thing. A horror thing.

[03:22:12] And if you want it to be a feel good sci fi thing, I don't know, I guess give them all time travel risks so they can do the lollipop with Josephine Baker, I guess. I don't I don't know. Well, the book is more of a feel good sci fi thing. The book is really is not or not much of a horror book. So they so all the really scary stuff and horrific stuff and nasty stuff they have added into the show.

[03:22:39] And I read the book, so it gives me a greater appreciation for the show. But people who haven't read the book mostly are just like, this isn't horror enough. I'm like, it could be so much worse. I did read the story that you sent. Oh, that's Call of Cthulhu. So that's by Lovecraft. Matt Ruff wrote Lovecraft Country, the book, which actually has no connection to H.P. Lovecraft. Except for stealing the name. It's just in the title. That all got so complicated for my beautiful, bubbly brain.

[03:23:09] It is complete. You're just a different guy. Just a different guy. Different white guy. I can break it down. So H.P. Lovecraft, legendary writer, died a really long time ago, was super racist at certain points. But he actually, by the end of his life, he was a socialist. And they recently came out with some letters. And he basically says socialism or barbarism and capitalism is failing. So he did kind of go back on that.

[03:23:37] But then, like, you know, about five years ago, this guy named Matt Ruff, who is just like one of these writers who just like hustles on Amazon. You know, like trying to make it happen. Throwing shit at the wall. Yeah, he wrote this as like a fake like X-Files show that he was going to pitch as a TV show. It wasn't even supposed to be a book. It was supposed to be a TV show. It really has nothing to do with Lovecraft.

[03:24:07] Other than the fact that Atticus has read Lovecraft. It's basically like a story in the book. It's a story about like these wizards who are also kind of racist. And they find Atticus's family and mostly follows the same shape of the TV show. And are they white? The wizard? The wizards? No, like in this other guy's book. Oh, no, no. They're black. But he is a white. Oh, so this isn't even like a thing where they made people.

[03:24:33] I thought this whole show was like, we are making old racist white sci-fi black. Whoa. No, that was a lie. That was kind of a lie. That was like a marketing campaign thing. It's actually very strange. I very quickly want to say, because I am a TV critic, so very quickly want to defend my cred. But this show, I saw a screener for the pilot. And as soon as I saw it, I was just like, I don't even want to tackle this beast.

[03:25:05] This whole story and narrative and just history around it, I was like, this seems super sci-fi. I don't know anything about this old guy. I just am going to watch the show and enjoy it and not think about it. And yeah, like you said, this just seems like such a marketing ploy because that's all I really paid attention to. And I was like, oh, yeah, they're taking these old racist stories and turning them into black characters. So that's not the case, I guess. Well, it's kind of true. All right. So I should read a book.

[03:25:33] It's kind of like you have to triangulate. All right. So the book Lovecraft Country, nothing to do with Lovecraft, not very much sci-fi, not very much horror, is adapted by executive producer Jordan Peele and Misha Green, who's the showrunner. And they have been actually trying to make like trying to make it truer to the marketing of the book, which was reclaiming whatever that means, sci-fi for black spaces.

[03:26:02] So they are adding in elements where they're trying to tie in blackness to this story more so than the original book, which is not the original book. But it's still a white man's story. Yes, a white man's story. So he was originally trying to put black people- If you're watching, you can't see, but I am wearing a dashiki right now.

[03:26:23] But yes, and really, like, I really just wish they had just like done their own original thing with Lovecraft and black people because almost all the things holding the show back are originally in the book. So then the story I read is the real Lovecraft. Is the real Lovecraft. Okay. Real Lovecraft. Because there were some moments where I was a little like this. It felt very tied to the I Am episode.

[03:26:49] I was like, okay, yes, they these these cult black people that they're describing very racist and killing are black people who are serving this black God who will save them someday. Oh, kind of. I was like, maybe that's a tie there. But I was mostly like credit to the TV show for making this so boring. God, this is mostly just a story about someone recounting other people's dreams for so long. I don't even like hearing my own dreams.

[03:27:17] And he's just like 20 people had the same dream. And now like and let me detail each person having that dream. And then how I went and questioned them because I was like, did you really have that dream? And then they all retold me the dream again. Let me tell it to you as they told it to me again. It was a tough one to get through. Well, you know, that is the essence of H.P. Lovecraft. I'm a huge fan of H.P. Lovecraft. And I'm frankly disappointed that you haven't.

[03:27:47] You haven't fallen in love with it as I am. I did like the cult parts. And, you know, there was I was like, OK, it's getting a little racist. A lot of slurs. He's you know, he's like the mixed bloods, blah, blah, blah. But then there's a part where he's like, there was a Norwegian who was smart for his type. And I was like, oh, OK, this guy just maybe hates. He's just a nasty guy.

[03:28:14] He hates a nasty guy who would probably make jokes about Polish people being stupid. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is I'm so glad that he's just like when I got to that point, he's just like in this Norwegian idiot. Lovecraft was so racist against every single person aside from well-bred, you know, very high family, high born whites. And even then he did.

[03:28:41] He disliked most of them now because they had all like fallen into actually working for a living and becoming lawyers and shit like he. He really just had such a disdain for the modern world in large part due to his hatred for capitalism, which it was originally he hated it because it was like getting rid of like the aristocracy that he was. His family was formed formerly into and they all had to fucking work now.

[03:29:09] And then but by the end of his life, he actually had a legitimate the same place about capitalism that we have. So that's why I liked Lovecraft stories on the whole so much as a as a socialist, even though he can be very racist. It's like, but he hates everything. And I hate everything, too. I mean, reading that story to me felt like reading a police report. And look, I, to be honest with you, I actually agree with what you're saying and I'm laughing at it.

[03:29:38] But like, I actually like like that stuff like I like and it helped to like draw. It helps me to draw to draw me into it. And I also kind of understand, you know, putting myself in like the era, how that would draw someone in. And like it just feels so much scarier. The like dryness and the police reportness of it makes it seem like a medical paper. Yeah. Like, oh, this could be real. Like that much eerier. Yeah. Like if you're reading this in like a periodical, you're like, oh, my God, is this like it's Cthulhu. Yeah.

[03:30:07] Like, oh, these cults are murdering squatters all over. Like, yeah. You know, and that that is cool. But I mean, I was like, it's dry. And yeah, let's get to the point, man. Like, yeah, he's just like three paragraphs shitting on his uncle's like organizational skills. He's just like, and this box was cool. But then this box was cool. It's like. Oh, God. Oh, God. It's fun. Look, listen, I like the story.

[03:30:36] You guys didn't know this is going to be the roast of H.P. Lovecraft. No, no. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I love it. Because you're not roasting for anything that isn't like true. Like, this is what I like about him. Like, you're describing all the things I like about him. Like, that's accurate. Fair. Yeah. It just really hates everyone. Just that what I did in that Norwegian line. It's like in the last, like, few paragraphs. And I got there and I just laughed. So that was honestly worth it.

[03:31:05] It was like the biggest laugh line in the world to me. You're just like, oh, my God, this guy is so racist. He hates black people like this whole story. Like, I'd rather hear about the. And then you get there and you're just like. And the thing I like about this story, even though it does have like, like, it does portray like specifically black people from New Orleans, where I'm from, from Louisiana, where I'm from as like subhuman worshipers of the dark. Like, there's a power in it, though. Right.

[03:31:34] Like, I feel I feel like if you had asked any of those people, like what was up there, be like, yeah, we worship Cthulhu. We brought them. We. Yeah. This is from our ancestors. Yeah. And we're going to use this power to. There's a power in that. I mean, he never said what was wrong with it. Like. Yeah. It's wrong in his eyes. You know what I mean? It's just like. That's scary to me. Yeah. He's like, it looks scary and it made everyone have dreams. So.

[03:32:04] Yeah. Yeah. And now I do. I do have to, you know, dock my boy HP Lovecraft because the big thing that everyone, every Lovecraft fan complains about is how Cthulhu has become like a meme and is portrayed and shows up in different things and video games.

[03:32:22] And it's just treated as like, you know, this big, bad monster when it's supposed to be like, like this supposed to be like this, you know, very scary spectral entity from the stars that you're not really supposed to be able to conceive of. There's nothing human humanity can do to ever defeat or fight it. But in this story, Lovecraft does give in to the temptation to have someone ram Cthulhu with a ship.

[03:32:48] And that kind of, you know, does give people invitations to do a little bit more bombastic action type stuff with Cthulhu, even though Cthulhu does survive. And we are told that we're still supposed to be waiting in horror for the sleeping God to return. I just know that if he's getting crashed into with a ship, it's like we have nuclear bombs now. You know what I mean? Like we can take care of it. I think we can handle this. Oh, bullshit. I think we got it. But I was just like, I mean, he sounds cool.

[03:33:18] He's going to come back and presumably I would guess all of his cults around the world are all black people. See, from the story, you would think so. So what's so bad about that? What's wrong with that? See, that's a better Lovecraft County story is, you know, a bunch of, you know, normal black people raising Cthulhu for good reasons. Yes. A bunch of black people raising Cthulhu as a cult to take to take back America, take over America. Yeah.

[03:33:46] I think that and just kind of a bigger point about Lovecraft Country is that it and sort of different from Watchmen a bit is that it tries to really point at the racism. That these people live in. That these people live in. But I still feel like it separates that racism and sort of the evil magic from a larger system. Like, it's very much like, oh, these two cops who know evil are bad, who know magic are evil.

[03:34:11] But, like, the cops as a whole, it's not really, I don't know, asking us to throw things in that sort of framing. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. And again, this is the original sin from the book because they did, they had a bunch of racist cops, but they also, like, in the middle of the book has some cops that were also wizards. And so those two, like, storylines just converge into one. Yeah.

[03:34:38] Like, if we had seen in the pilot, like, the people doing that first, but if, like, they were governors or just at least some, you know, we see, like, the government is at least in on this conspiracy to keep white people in power with magic or something. I don't know. It just seems like sometimes they're reaching so hard to make these, like, larger societal ties and, like, messages. And it's like, why don't, like, just, okay, then do it all the way instead of just... Throwing in a Malcolm X speech. Like, come on.

[03:35:04] They only have access to a small percentage of the power of magic. So, like, this is all, like, they're all, like, I don't know, Weasley? Is he a weak one from Harry Potter? Is he one of the weak ones? It's like if every wizard was, like, the weakest wizard in Harry Potter and, like, didn't study and didn't know shit. So, even though they have all these... Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just learning this is not all based on H.P. Lovecraft's ancient sci-fi stories. Yeah.

[03:35:32] So, I need to reconceptualize everything. HBO did that to you on purpose. They did. This is intentional by HBO. HBO wanted me to be like, this is a win, diversity, and now I'm just realizing they just made a white guy's story. Yes. A contemporary white guy. They just made a contemporary white guy's show. Yes. And he happened to write about black people. Yeah.

[03:35:59] Well, he deliberately wrote about black people. Probably deliberately, because that's what they're buying these days. Yes. Yes. I bet he said that, too. Yeah, he did. He absolutely did. I mean, it's very obvious when you're reading the book, because he does drop, like, it's Tulsa, it's Emmett Till, it's every single thing. Does he use the N word in the book? Ah, yeah. I think some of the bad guys used the Norton book. Okay. I guess that's okay. Yeah. Only the bad guys.

[03:36:28] But, like, he really, like, he tried his best, but he really, like, doesn't understand, like, blackness and black culture. And it seemed like the show was trying to fix that, and then they got kind of lazy and just started throwing in black culture from, like, the modern day instead. Yeah. Like, I can- Which, yeah, I like for the music. I like some of the modern audio cues they have. Yeah, I'm fine with the music. But sometimes it's just, like, in the writing and in what's happening. It's like, what?

[03:36:57] This is not- Like, what? It's talking about privilege. It's somebody saying, you know what, lady? You need to read White Fragility. Yeah. There was also, like, one line in the big queer episode, the big gay episode, where the dad was like, he says something like, oh, magic is jazz, baby, or something like that. And I was like, you can tell someone wrote that line and was like, people are going to tweet that. But it's just one of those lines where it's like, what? Why is this?

[03:37:27] Like, no, this isn't- It's so out of place. All right. So I think we've covered, thoroughly covered Lovecraft Country for the day. Ashley, where can people find you? The Ashley Ray on everything. Twitter at TheAshleyRay, TheAshleyRay.com, Instagram. My podcast, October 23rd TV, I Say with Ashley Ray. You should check it out. If you want to hear more talking about TV like this, both of you should be on it. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love TV. It's going to talk about-

[03:37:56] It's a whole podcast about how people watch TV, what we love to watch, how we watch TV. I'm really excited. You should- So follow me. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Awesome. All right, folks. Thanks. Thank you so much. Have a good one. Later. Thanks.

[03:38:43] Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to Lovecraft Country. It should be bleeped. I think this is- I mean, it's been long enough at this point that the producers should be taking care of this stuff. Yeah. So because not to confuse us with the actual TV show, Lovecraft Country, we do bleep it out. There is a stylistic difference. HBO, please, please do not see that. Well, that's prestige. You know what I mean? That's like, they're allowed to say certain words on HBO that you can't say on other channels.

[03:39:12] And today we are going to talk about the last two episodes of the first season of Lovecraft Country, as well as HP Lovecraft's The Dunnage Horror, possibly one of his most popular and well-loved stories and certainly one of my favorite stories of his. But we'll get into that a little bit later. So let's talk about the show.

[03:39:37] And Jack, we have to get- part of the reason this episode is a bit late is because you said to me you actually kind of got bored with the show towards the end. I have gotten bored of this show. Yeah, I don't know. Like those first couple of weeks, I was just kind of digging the like kind of sci-fi, you know, like effects of it a little bit or something like that.

[03:40:02] But I really have felt as this has gone on, it's now it's nowhere near Watchmen level. It's nowhere near Watchmen level. But I have felt as this has gone on that I'm like, I do find myself bored to be watching this show. Like as we've continued, I find myself like putting it on and being like my eyes are like glazing over at this mythology. And I don't know. I just don't find the world that compelling. It feels like I don't know.

[03:40:31] It just feels it. It just feels somehow like it doesn't connect or something like that for me. Yes. So, of course, Lovecraft Country, the TV show based on the book Lovecraft Country, which had nothing to do with H.P. Lovecraft or his work in really. And this the last the final two episodes of the show are more or less almost completely original.

[03:40:58] There's a little bit of overlap with the book with the last episode. But the first episode that we're going to talk about today, episode nine, rewind. 1921. That's basically not in the book. I would not have wanted a white guy to try and write a time travel story to the Tulsa riots, which is the majority made up the majority of this episode. Yes.

[03:41:26] Another Tulsa on HBO. So, Jack, first thing I want to ask you is which do you think was better, the Watchmen Tulsa or the Lovecraft Country Tulsa? It's a shame that they didn't do that ninth season of Game of Thrones because we might have gotten like the Westeros. Well, I mean, at a certain point, it's like, you know, it definitely is weird that you can even ask that question.

[03:41:52] Which Tulsa in an HBO prestige like sci fi series, which like Tulsa riot did you like better? You know what I mean? I think that's a little bit strange. And I guess with that said, I do feel like the Watchmen one was like slightly more effective. Oh, see, I actually like the Lovecraft Country one a little bit better. The Lovecraft Country one was was a lot more like TV and cheaper looking.

[03:42:17] But it actually has something to fucking do with the story of the episode and the characters involved. Well, sure. Yeah. And you knew who the characters were, what the stakes are, why they would want to go back to this moment, not just because they're black. Like they did like I do want to give the episode points for not just hanging on this on. We're going we're doing Tulsa because this is a show about black stuff. And I just heard about Tulsa. So I'm going to do it.

[03:42:44] But they actually do like tie it in with the overall mythology and the storyline and the characters in a way that for me, like if it weren't for Watchmen, it would probably wouldn't be. And if like, I don't know, Donald Trump wasn't president or something like that, like if the culture was just different, it just would not like it wouldn't be a big deal.

[03:43:09] It wouldn't like I feel like I wouldn't have try to have to feel like it has this weight. It would just be like a time travel story on the fucking sci fi show. Right. Like that's all it would be like Star Trek would like have an episode where they go to the Tulsa riots like that would that's something that could conceivably happen in like an episode of like the next generation. Right. Like and just wouldn't have the like that all that like that gravity, that weight that

[03:43:38] these prestige shows have now. And so it would be completely different. I guess I just think that it's weird that HBO has been going for like what, like 30 years now. And it's like 28 years, no Tulsa riot material. And then two years to Tulsa riot shows. Yes. Some executive read a book over there. That's all I'm saying. Some executive read a book over there. And we know the book. We know the book. We know it's a ton of he's the coast.

[03:44:06] They read the right on the easy coast. And that was it. But yeah, so episode nine, rewind 1921. It does mostly take place during the Tulsa. The our Freeman family. They are a black family who can go anywhere in time or space, but they end up choosing

[03:44:31] to go back to the Tulsa massacre to find the book of Adam so that they can. And this is all this shit, by the way. I swear to God, I've been watching Legends of Tomorrow and like it is so silly with its mythology, but it like makes me glaze over so much less than all this fucking book of Adam. Like, oh, my God. We're like back in time trying to find the book of Adam.

[03:45:00] I'm like, what the fuck is going on in this story? This is very Legends of Tomorrow. Legends of Tomorrow also would go back to Tulsa. Super really feels like this show, as it's continued, has felt very Legends of Tomorrow. I'm like, so you're going to get the book of thorns from like historical events. I'm like, I am just watching the CW Arrowverse show at this point. And, you know, I kind of I'm into it. Kind of. I like it better when it's like the silly Arrowverse version. You know what I mean?

[03:45:29] Like I this I don't know. I I guess I just like the silliness of it versus this is like feels so serious. And they're still talking about like we're going to go get the book of Henry and all this shit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even the Tulsa episode. I mean, it's silly to say, but it is very serious. Because besides the racial violence, this episode really focuses on like mantras is having to

[03:45:56] live as a closet gay black man all these years. Like it kind of like you think it's going to be about race. It's actually about like, you know, sexual identity. And it I mean, it worked somewhat for me, but it just feel. But as you said, like it doesn't necessarily work when you're also doing all the CW shit to like when he's giving his dialogue, watching his younger self being yelled at by his father.

[03:46:23] That's like very much like a CW thing. That's like supernatural. Yeah. That's a supernatural. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But I just don't know if the show ever struck the right off. Yeah. It never really strikes the right tone. I think it really is. I think the showrunner, Misha Green, did like the best she could with the material she was working with. But I wish they had just spread their wings a lot more because I said my favorite episode

[03:46:51] was the other the holy original one with Jiang and Korea. Like that episode was like really good, had a really great balance of, you know, the kind of silly over the top stuff with the more serious stuff and the social issues. And it's just like I think we've said a lot. This show has always just struggled to find a balance about where where it wants to be and what tone it needs to set and what type of show it really is.

[03:47:19] I actually think now that I think about it more like this show would probably be better off if it weren't on HBO. Yeah. It was just kind of like a sci-fi series about, you know. If it was on the sci-fi network. I think about Black history, like sliders with Black history. Yeah. I'm like that like I get. It's like you tried to trick everybody into like thinking this isn't sliders for Black history, but it kind of is. And that's like good. You know what I mean? Yeah. It should just be that.

[03:47:49] I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you know, I still enjoy episode nine on the whole, but it really a lot of it, I feel like a lot of the episodes have this problem. It's like when they have the multiple threads going, it feels like so much. It feels very long and like they're treading water a lot. And kind of a lot of these threads are like a little bit like fucking like boring and nonsensical a little bit. Like, you know what I mean?

[03:48:17] Like sometimes some of this story is like all in magic. You know what I mean? And so you're having to like track all these threads about magic and all this shit across across like multiple episodes. I'm like, I don't know. I just kind of lost the thread here. You know, like Letitia keeps getting visited by the Freeman ancestors, even though she's not a Freeman like that, that that confused me a bit.

[03:48:46] And like that, and it's like the main part of the episode is her like talking to the Tick's like great, great, great grandmother. I'm like, why are you talking to her? Why is it Tick talking to her? You're like, you're not related. But the big finish, episode 10, full circle, the finale of the series. Jack, what did you think about it? And, you know, it just really didn't like do it for me that much.

[03:49:16] I mean, like there's some big there was some big spectacle and everything like that. But I don't know. I maybe I had just sort of lost the thread by this point. But it just didn't like I don't know. I could. I found myself very bored watching this episode of television. Yeah, because I mean, as Ashley pointed out on our last podcast, the stakes of the season

[03:49:39] finale are that, you know, Tick is going to die, even though he has almost died like every episode and people have already died. So it was very difficult to get super invested because it wasn't really any sort of escalation. Yeah. And like they weren't. And a part of it is, is that, you know, the the antagonist, the person you think is

[03:50:06] a villain, Christina, it's like she's not really it doesn't seem like she's really trying to like do something like super bad. Like like the Freemans don't trust her and don't want to fuck with her. But she's actually like, hey, if you give me the book, then I won't have to kill Atticus. I don't want to kill him. I just want the power. Like if you give me the book, like then I can probably get the power without having to kill him.

[03:50:33] Like like and it just I really made me think, especially early in the episode of like, why don't you just give her the book? There's just like work with her. Like she hasn't like done anything really bad to you like so far in the series. Yeah, I don't know. I just think this show kind of lost the plot for me and kind of just became like this sort of unwieldy nonsensical thing by the end.

[03:50:59] I mean, I did like in the final episode, all the characters, you know, come together, do a little road trip sing along. I thought that was fun. I like that Jiang came back in and they kind of tied up there's her and Atticus's storyline, which was like the most interesting storyline and relationship and like romance in the show. I was much more into their romance than I am Letty's and Atticus's.

[03:51:27] Like Letty is just like I love Atticus. He's so great for like no particular reason. It seems like so in this episode is more kind of Legends of Tomorrow shit where they have to instead of going to the past, they bring an old racist wizard ghost back alive so they can learn so they can get some magic on their own while they also spend some time in like

[03:51:53] a burning hell dimension that their ancestor created for them for some reason, like a burning plantation that she just has lived in for the past 100 or so years. They go there, they learn magic. And then we find out the big twist, you know, the big sad twist is that Letty's sister has been killed by Christina for trying to betray her in order to help the Freemans.

[03:52:23] Yeah, I mean, you know, again, it's like it's so complex. It's so Legends of Tomorrow. And in some ways I'm just like, can we do an episode about Legends of Tomorrow? Yeah. So in the finale, I did like that there was a body count, you know, I did like that that Tick actually died, died like for real. And they did kill him off. But of course, they were still able to stop Christina from she was trying to become a

[03:52:52] mortal. Right. And I actually thought the scene was cool with her drowning in like eggs is blood and stuff. I thought that was actually pretty cool visuals. And I oh, and I did like, you know, when the fucking storm starts coming and John's tentacles like start tales start coming out, like a lot of that stuff did look cool and like Lovecraftian and horror movie ish. I really I like John really is like the best part of the show.

[03:53:22] She's like the creepiest, coolest, most interesting character. I wish there was more of her in it. But I like I like the finish of it more or less. And, you know, Atticus dies even they stop the ritual. But Atticus still dies. And they also prevent white people from being able to use magic, which is funny. I like that. It's funny. Like, is that I'm just I just does this weird.

[03:53:49] That's like that's the thing that they thought to do is like we're not going to give ourselves we're not going to give every black person magical power. We just stop white people from using it. But we're going to keep the book to ourselves. After all that, Christina's lying under some rubble. And D, the little girl who was almost turned into a little racist ghost. I won't say what they what the name of the episode was. Yes. Sure.

[03:54:18] And her arm got like messed up. And so her mother, who has become like a intradimensional like space diva of some sort superhero, gives her builds her a cybernet arm. And she uses that in a pretty brutal scene.

[03:54:40] This little girl like just chokes Christina and then like rips her throat out like Patrick Spage. Yeah. Look, I like I like all the I like the spectacle of this episode. I like the effects. I like the violence. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[03:54:56] I was I was a little weirded out by that scene because, again, I really didn't think Christina, I guess, besides killing a lady sister, hadn't really done anything so bad to deserve like a throat rip death. But then I listened to Misha Green's the podcast, official podcast. And Misha Green was on it and she explained that she said something very interesting to explain the ending.

[03:55:22] And I was like, you know, the reason I had her, you know, go ahead and kill her, not let her live to see another day like a typical villain is that, you know, when you look at it, there's been no revolution that has succeeded without violence. And so she sees the Freemans as like these revolutionaries, you know, taking on this, you know, power structure of, you know, white magic. And she was like, you know, fuck the nonviolent shit.

[03:55:49] And that's why she has the murder Christina at the end of the episode. And I thought that was kind of cool, actually. Moving on to our short story for the day, the Dunnich Horror. Sure. This is a H.P. Lovecraft written in 1928, published the next year up for this story. He got like three grand, which was like the most money he had gotten paid for a story up until that point. And it was worth it, yo.

[03:56:19] Yeah, this is like the best one. I really, really like this story. I think Alan Moore really likes this story because he uses a lot of it in Providence. Like he basically like has all he has all the characters from this story in it and the Dunnich Horror.

[03:56:38] So, of course, being an H.P. Lovecraft story is told in, you know, multiple frames far into the future of when the story actually takes place.

[03:56:52] It's about this place called Dunnich, Massachusetts, where the Waitley family, with the decrepit, both the decrepit side and the side that has remained genetically pure.

[03:57:12] As the story tells us several times, H.P. Lovecraft's Daenerys constantly reminding us that, yes, there has been two misogynation in Massachusetts. The whites are no longer white. This is one of the stories that I actually like because Lovecraft is only racist against other white people. It's just like, you know, you know, these used to be, you know, well-bred, you know, and that but now they're like mixed with the Irish and shit. And it's awful.

[03:57:42] Yeah, I like this story. You know, I think this story is really cool. And, you know, I really like this sort of like grim and growing terror of it, you know, and I like this in a lot of Lovecraft stuff where it's kind of like the land itself is like infected with evil. Or something like that. Like, it's not the horror. It's like Dunnich itself becomes the horror in a weird way.

[03:58:08] Yeah, because the first, like, basically chapter is just this long treatise on how, like, fucked up Dunnich is. And, like, you'll know you're in Dunnich when you feel, like, absolutely awful and everything looks like shit. Which, again, is some more of the kind of funny, like, Lovecraftiness of it, of, like, this man, you know, this guy just hated doing anything. You know what I mean? Like, just this guy, like, writing about Massachusetts. And he's like, as soon as you step out, your fucking stomach gets sick.

[03:58:41] And if you want to dig back into the things that led Lovecraft to writing this story, part of it was, like, actually, like, going someplace and being like, oh, this place fucking sucks. And another part is that this story is very much kind of a tribute to a writer, a Welsh writer named Arthur Makin. And his stories are actually referenced in this.

[03:59:08] The Great God Pan is one of his famous horror novellas, which is about a woman who has congress with the demigod Pan and has a daughter that becomes this fucking demonic creature who, like, lures children into the forest and, like, does fucked up shit to him. It's a very, like, creepy story.

[03:59:33] And it's from, like, you know, the fucking turn of the century, you know, like, around, like, 1900. Really old, really creepy story. A lot Lovecraft learned a lot from Mackin. The way he uses mythology, the way he uses false documents, very similar. So if you're, I mean, and all his stuff is free. So if you want to dive into the kind of history of weird fiction horror, you might want to read that.

[04:00:02] It's actually quite a good read. But it's kind of where, you know, video game, like, Kodak entries came from. Yeah. That's kind of the origin of those. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And but this story, Dunwich Horror. So the elevation that Lovecraft makes is, you know, Mackin, all his mythology was mostly based on, like, pagan mythology, some Christianity stuff mentioned in there.

[04:00:29] Some, you know, you know, just, you know, just folklore and mythology that was kind of already existing. Right. But and that's referenced a little bit in the beginning of the Dunwich Horror by Lovecraft, where he talks about, like, you know, the kind of witch hunts that would happen in this place. And the fee and, you know, meaning like Christian, like, you know, Protestant Christian, you know, fears of devils and whatnot.

[04:00:55] But that becomes, you know, through Lovecraft's, you know, creativity, he starts referencing his own mythology, which, you know, supersedes anything that's biblical or, you know, pagan or, you know, traditional. His god in this is Yog-Sodos, which, you know, is some creature that lives in the alternate dimension.

[04:01:18] And the elder, the elder Wakely is able to call down one of these interdimensional, this interdimensional god so that he impregnates his daughter and she gives birth to his, you know, monstrous, intradimensional offspring.

[04:01:39] And it's just like a really, like, creepy, fucked up story where, you know, you learn about Wilbur, Wilbur Wakely is this, you know, offspring. And they and it's the passage is so funny because it's the most deadpan delivery of the most bizarre shit ever. It's like at first the like the baby comes out like covered in dark hair and looking like like a goat. Yeah.

[04:02:06] And like at three months, he was like the size of a toddler and walking. And at seven months, he was walking around and 11 months he was talking. And three years, he looked like he was like 10. And when he was like five, he was like six feet tall. And everybody's like Baron Trump is a really, you know, fun, interesting story where you have this, you know, clearly this intradimensional fucked up.

[04:02:34] Like, yeah, eldritch dude just walking around, like going to libraries and basically telling people like, hey, I want to check this book out so I can like call my dad to wipe out humanity. Like, but like I'll bring the I'll take care of the book. Like I'll bring it back. So good. Yeah. I like I like the sort of like the word the land is diseased thing.

[04:03:00] I really like the specific where they kept getting new cattle, but they never they always had the same number because they would always get sick. Oh, well, actually, that was because we found out later that Wilbur has a twin brother, sister. We're not quite sure. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. And they've been feeding those or sacrificing actually use the word sacrifice.

[04:03:27] So I'm not even sure if it's necessarily like eating them. Something fucked up is doing it. And that's the invisible son of Yogg-Solos, which is who is invisible, but is like a gargantuan monster the size of like a house.

[04:03:45] But that can like move really fast and like is again fucking invisible, invisible giant fucking monster that just like eats bulls like just tears can like and like they describe where like he's going through the forest and you just see the trees peeling away. But nothing else.

[04:04:03] And they describe like the only way you know it's around is because this awful, awful stench that's that leaves around because it just is a creature that doesn't belong in our world. So terrible. Yeah, it's just yeah. Yeah, it's the sort of like the thing that you can also get with like all of Lovecraft's, you know, sort of elder God monsters and stuff like that is that it's just like they do not care. Like it's like they just don't even like have any regard.

[04:04:33] Humanity like barely even like matters. You know what I mean? It's like this doesn't even like have the need to really like it's like we're we're so ants. You know what I mean? Yeah, they're just sort of like walking among lesser creatures. The beings that the Waitleys were going to let in tangibly, meaning that they were going to come into the world in corporeal form. That's this was the Waitleys plan. They were going to fuck.

[04:04:58] Yeah, they were going to wipe out the human race and drag the earth off to some nameless place for some nameless purpose. That is so funny to take the earth. Yes, it's so fucking creepy. That is so fucked up to take the earth. Oh, yeah, it reminds me. No, it reminds me of it reminds me of Phantasm. Have you have you seen that? Um, I don't. I've seen Mask of the Phantasm.

[04:05:24] Oh, no, the horror movie with the flying balls that I have not seen Phantasm. Actually, all right. I know we've talked about it in one of our 30 days of horror, but I didn't get to see it. Yeah, well, we should watch it. I'm down. But it's kind of is very much Lovecraft and inspired. So I'm not going to spoil it for you. But, you know, it's just like the idea that you wipe out humanity and then take the earth. It's like because you because the as you said, the humans don't matter.

[04:05:53] And this is a recurring thing in Lovecraft where it's like the planet itself. Like we are not the masters of it, even like not even talking about the monsters. Like there's just other like species of creatures that end up living on this planet for far longer and end up learning a lot more about the true nature of the universe than humanity. And we're just kind of like a blip. We're just one.

[04:06:19] Well, not necessarily a blip, but one of many creatures that ends up dominating the earth and not a particularly interesting one. Yeah. You know, reading actual Lovecraft, you're like, wow, there's just so much. It's so weird and so cohesive and creepy or whatever. And then, like, you know, you just shouldn't name the show Lovecraft. Yeah. Country. You know what I mean? Like you do yourself a disservice. That was Dunge Horror.

[04:06:46] But let's, you know, kind of talk about Lovecraft Country, the TV show on the whole. Like, did you find this worthwhile to go through? Um, not really. I mean, it's OK. It's fine. It's fine. I ultimately in the end, I'm like, it is a pretty cool looking show. It's like one of these things where it's like you wish I wish Misha Green, who I do think seems like a good writer and, you know, is coming up with good stuff.

[04:07:15] It's like you wish Misha Green wasn't like shackled to this this Lovecraft Country property property. You know what I mean? This like weird property that HBO bought written by some white guy. You know what I mean? Like, I ultimately kind of walk away from this series being like there's a lot of cool ideas in it. You know, I think there's a lot of good writing in it. But like it just kind of feels like an unwieldy mess of like, you know, kind of not that interesting mythology. Yeah.

[04:07:44] The mythology is just really, really baseline week. They try. I think they tried to do some cooler stuff with it, try to expand it a little bit in the show. But at the end of the day, they're really just they were starting with that book. And I think they just especially early on relied too much on it.

[04:08:03] And then when they tried to like catch up, it was those episodes where there was just like too fucking much going on because they were trying to advance all these all these different characters, plot lines, catch it all up in between the standalone episodes. And just ultimately, it didn't really form a cohesive unit the way I think Misha Green could have done if she were creating that original show.

[04:08:33] But hope. But, you know, there is hope because like there's no more to the book like that. That's it that that it goes up to that point. And and at the end of the book, Atticus actually lives through it. So it's like not even so they already, you know, departed fairly strongly from it at the end. Now, if they get a second season, you know, I I will watch it. I will watch it.

[04:08:57] I would be interested in seeing what they do with a whole with, you know, with no excuse for, you know, sticking with this kind of, you know, weak, tepid, watered down book. Now they can go, you know, all all out, you know, with it. I hope they do. You know, I do, too. I would give it another watch. But, you know, ultimately, I just found myself very bored by the mythology.

[04:09:27] And I found that like it kind of took itself too seriously in a way that like time travel shows like this shouldn't. And, you know, and we should do an episode about Legends of Tomorrow. All right. But we will be doing more episodes of this podcast. I don't know if we're going to keep calling it Lovecraft Country. Our sound guy just cannot figure out how to. Yeah, well, you know, we're going to get canceled over this bullshit, but that's fine. But we will be continuing to, you know, talk about Lovecraft and his stories.

[04:09:56] We'll get some cool guests on. Maybe, you know, we haven't had any horror writers on, you know, and, you know, they got some pretty good. And they don't have anything fucking else to do. Right. Come on. Come on. Yeah. We'll get some horror writers on. We'll talk. We'll dive deep into the writing of Lovecraft. And we'll also do some of the movies, you know, based on Lovecraft work. I'm really excited to do an episode about Stuart Gordon.

[04:10:22] And we're going to get the folks over at Horror Vanguard on to talk about some Stuart Gordon reanimator from beyond. Love it. Dagon. You know, you already know who it is. Oh, yeah. So thank you so much for listening to this. And we'll have more coming for you later. Thank you so much for subscribing to us, whether you're on Patreon or Sesh.plus or Substack. Thank you so much for listening to the show and supporting it. Please tell your friends about it.

[04:10:51] And talk to you soon. Peace. Peace.