Unlocked Bonus Episode: Alan Moore's Miracleman

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[00:00:30] Well, I suppose my feelings about the Superheroes have probably changed really, really drastically over the past sort of 30 years. I mean, initially when I was seven, I saw the Superheroes as an incredible source of ideas and imagination. It wasn't that I wanted to be Superman and be able to beat up bullies. I was a pretty big kid, I could beat up bullies by myself. So it was just purely the imagination.

[00:00:59] That was the imagination that they represented. And that was how I used to feel about them. That was the way that I tried to treat them. When I began working in the genre, I tried to think of new ways to use the characters, stuff like that.

[00:01:20] My feelings have changed since I have become really, really cranky and embittered. And it's my current feelings about the Superheroes are that what they largely represent. This is after looking at a lot of people working in the Superheroes are that they have never formed a union.

[00:01:48] With the exception of three or four people. They have never answered back to their employers. They have never complained about the subhuman way in which they are treated. When the artists that they professed when the artists that they profess to admire are taken out and put to the wall.

[00:02:12] People like Jack Kirby. When he had had his artwork physically stolen from the Marvel Comics offices. Just before they were going to have to legally give it back to him. Yeah, you know, these things happen just a pure coincidence, I'm sure. Nobody said a word.

[00:02:37] And you start to see a bit of a gap, a credibility gap, developing between these costumed champions who always stand up for the oppressed. Who always struggle against tyrants. Who are always on the side of the underdog. Yeah, and then you've got the artists who draw them.

[00:03:06] Who have never shown any courage at all. And you start to think, I'm not asking these people to defend the earth against Galactus. Should he turn up. I'm just asking them to stand up for their own wives and children.

[00:03:29] You know, you start to see the American superhero as a cowardice compensator. As people who will not, who will put up with their governments and their bosses doing almost anything to them. As long as they can escape into a fantasy where they are the Hulk or the Silver Surfer.

[00:03:57] And nobody pushes them around. That is the negative side of the superhero. In that it becomes something which stands for its exact opposite. And that's a bit of a downer isn't it? I wish I hadn't actually mentioned that now. But it's the way that I've ended up feeling about the superhero. That's not to say that at some point in the future I might not dabble in the genre again.

[00:04:25] If I can find some way of doing so in a way that entertains and interests me. But really it's the last thing that I'm thinking about at the moment. There is such a lot of wonderful material that does not involve people with their underpants outside their trousers. You know, there is a much wider universe out there which I'm happy to ask about.

[00:05:59] Welcome to the Alan Moore Podcast presented by Struggle Session. I am Leslie III and I'm Jack Allison. And today I am so excited to talk about this book which I feel like more people need to read, Jack. I think that's fair to say because it was impossible to read for a very long time. Well, the story, I mean, first of all, it's a great comic just to begin with.

[00:06:26] But then also just as a piece of comic history, it's an absolutely like bizarre and fascinating story. We could do a whole episode just on the behind the scenes machinations, the lawsuits, the naming rights, all this stuff just on the origin of this comic. Well, even getting into the fact that it's one of the greatest comic books I've ever read. But we already the complication starts, Jack, because what the what the hell do I call this thing?

[00:06:53] Listen, to my mind, you're saying that most that people should read it. And I agree with that. More people should read it. And it actually now we don't want to scare people off. It's more available than ever. Yes. You know, so I say just call it Miracle Man. Miracle Man. If you people go, they can go on any bookstore and search for that name and probably find it actually at this point. Yeah. All right.

[00:07:17] So Miracle Man, Alan Moore is worth pointing out that even though this book is considered, you know, kind of the the genesis of Alan Moore and the great this actually because of the wacky publication, you get some of his early superhero stuff and his late superhero stuff. Mm hmm. All in one package, because the first run of this was published before Swamp Thing before he was his DC work.

[00:07:46] And then the then the latter half of it was actually published after a lot of that stuff. So it's a sampler platter. Yeah. So you get a real you get an idea of the breadth of the mind of Alan Moore. Like there's one thing I say about this comic is that is just an example of just absolutely savage mind at work. It goes hard and nonstop on every single level.

[00:08:11] Strangely enough, without a plan, without an overview necessarily, he said he was going by the book and basically just asking himself, well, if this really were true, what the fuck would that actually mean to people in the real world? And that's how you get a miracle man, man. And I'm joined today by two very special guests who have been on my show several times before. Ilana Levin and Trevor Bolliou. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:08:40] Oh, thank you for having me back. And thank you for suggesting this. Yes, same. I was probably never going to reread this, not because I didn't like it, but I figured I read it and I already enjoyed it. And I was glad that somebody made me reread it because I really didn't really read it, even though I've read it. Like I just didn't get a lot of it the first time around. And for me, I mean, it's been on my to do forever. And I knew about the lawsuits and the history and the why of what we came to be.

[00:09:09] And I had not read it until now. And when Leslie said, hey, have you read Miracle Man? And I said, no, when do you need me to do it? I said, I'm going to try. And I got through it all. And I'm so glad I did because it was really, really a pleasure. Yeah, I gave it a reread, too. And it, you know, it's a little deceptive, actually, because, you know, it seems like there's so much book.

[00:09:31] But a lot of the issues are a lot of the actual individual chapters are kind of short, like it's it's a you know, it gets very dense toward the end just as far as like how sort of prosy it gets. But it's still kind of a breezy read all the way up to that point. And I would say, like, kind of even then. But you're just like in your sort of 2001, you know, pros kind of ending at that point.

[00:09:56] Yeah, like like exactly as you said, Trevor, when I was rereading it again, I felt like reading it for the first time because there was just so much stuff I missed. I just didn't get I was just too young. I certainly enjoyed it and loved reading it. But rereading it again, I was just I was shocked by some of the things that happened, some of the things that I thought even didn't remember as fondly. And like, wow, actually, Alan Moore was right. This was damn good. This is just an amazing, breathtaking comic.

[00:10:25] The writing, the art itself, too, my God, is absolutely gorgeous from beginning to end almost. There are a couple issues there, a little you had that you had a substitute artist in. But for the most part, even I still think even on those issues, I love the use of color in the color edition of it. You can read this in black and white if you like. But I think that just the visually, this is one of the best comics out there, period.

[00:10:53] Yeah. And I actually even have to rep, you know, I have to say, like, Marvel did a pretty good job with this re-release. You know what I mean? And it is good that it's available in bookstores everywhere and that you that everyone can read Miracle Man. I think it's funny that they can't put Alan Moore's name on it and they have to put the original writer in every issue. But yeah, I think that the colorized the color version is really, really nice.

[00:11:21] And, you know, it's great that this comic is out there because it's a really cool one. And I also, you know, kind of agree with you, Leslie and Trevor in that, like, I didn't remember where this went. Like, I remember a lot of the plot points and a lot of like, especially the book one kind of like cool stuff.

[00:11:38] And, you know, like, I guess like the violence and the fights, you know, but then getting into like book three, I was like, man, I did not remember that this gets into the idea of like what a body is. And like that Miracle Man, like, creates socialism in the end, like with currency and shit. I was like, man, I this kind of blows my mind. I don't remember any of this stuff.

[00:12:04] What's so interesting is that, I mean, you know, literally in terms of when most of it came out, it is a prefiguration of Watchmen. But the ending is so much more hopeful in a different way, you know, than Watchmen. Like, it's really striking. Like, I think he just wanted to get both of these messages out of his system in that way. And I was not expecting, like, I knew about the suicide before I began reading the comic. And I knew about the violence.

[00:12:33] I did not know about the utopian ending. I mean, and obviously it's not like a flawless utopia. Like you see and you're getting it from his perspective, which is completely subjective. But like he does do a ton of things that I would do. So I'm like, yeah, I didn't expect that. You know, a big difference, honestly. And it's, you know, one of the things that makes these works cool is that it is Alan Moore kind of doing like a full meditation on what these superhero ideas are.

[00:13:03] And we see so much, like, reversal of the superhero idea. And like, what if it was like more violent or something like that? But Alan Moore, like, really does do a full meditation. And, you know, I think that this one has a more hopeful ending and has a more hopeful tone and gets more sci-fi throughout.

[00:13:22] Because Captain Marvel is a kind of a cool character, you know, and Captain Marvel has that kind of like Superman-ish hopefulness and all these elements of weird sci-fi kind of in there. Versus like the Charlton characters, which were kind of this, you know, Steve Ditko, you know, grounded Batman type character thing. That's a great point. You know, it's kind of interesting.

[00:13:49] I didn't see it as hopeful as you guys saw. I was about to say the same exact thing. I did not see the ending as hopeful at all. In fact, I thought it was incredibly dark ending. And it actually kind of chilled me seeing those last panels. And Trevor, I'm sorry, I cut you off. Oh, no, you're absolutely right. I was going to agree with you. I think it's very subtle. Like, at the end of Watchmen with Azumandai, you know, finds this new piece. There's like what seems like a throwaway line.

[00:14:19] But I think it's kind of the whole point where I think I'm going to be paraphrasing. I'm probably going to get it wrong. But I think something like did it all work out in the end? And then Dr. Manhattan kind of like. We'll see you next time.

[00:14:59] He caught it. Says, oh, Adrian, I kiss silly goose like nothing ever ends. And I felt the same type of feeling with when he's contemplating about the wife. And he's like, what did my wife mean about this was what I was giving up? And I think he was so in the reverie of his utopia that only his wife saw that there was something bad that's going to come out of trying to play God. And it left kind of a seed that was nagging at the back of his head.

[00:15:30] And I thought that was. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we're doing this podcast poorly. I'm assuming everyone has read the book before you're listening to the show. If not, you absolutely should. But I'll loop back to the beginning in a second. But this is kind of this interesting discussion. So, yeah, Trevor, exactly.

[00:15:54] He's ruminating about his wife who turned down the opportunity to become like him, to become this super God thing. And I think the last thing she says to him is, you're talking about what you're going to give me, but you don't even think for a second about what I'll lose.

[00:16:11] So the idea of that spread writ large where you're looking at his palace and the planet that is now this new landscape that he's created, the question then becomes like, what has been lost by humanity now that this accident has decided to take over and decide what our future is going to be for us? Well, I mean, the thing is that like, because Liz is so, I mean, underdeveloped is almost an understatement.

[00:16:40] You get the sense like, okay, I'm glad he remembered to come back and check in with her. I'm glad that he didn't go and just do this to her without talking with her. I'm glad that people have a choice. And you could say, well, people don't really have a choice if becoming superhuman becomes the norm. Like, what chance do you have to function in society if you opt out of it? But it seems like people do opt out.

[00:17:06] I think that giving up your humanity, if it is freeing you from the problems of humanity, is a reasonable choice to offer. Sure. You know, I think like the whole thing is, I don't think that we're supposed to just take it as a given that he made all the right choices and everything is okay moving forward. Like, for sure. But you have a story where, you know, one of the preoccupations that Alan Moore has is nuclear weapons, right?

[00:17:36] And it makes sense given, you know, when he was alive. And I do think that as I get older, I realize how much people younger than me, like, just don't have the same. It wasn't as much of a thing in their consciousness and concerns as it was for us. But the nuclear disarmament and its significance throughout the story is sort of like, here's our opportunity to not have to do that. And removing that makes all of these other things possible.

[00:18:05] So I don't think that it's like saying here is like, you're getting the ending through the eyes of the protagonist. So yeah, you're seeing it the way he wants you to. But to me, it's a compelling thing. And I think if they wanted us to see it more through her eyes, then they should have given us more through her eyes and given us more from, like, her inner life and what she sees as these problems because, like, her life just seems so shitty.

[00:18:36] Well, let's get into it. So Miracle Man, the story is about what a terrible thing it would have to be to be a superhero. It ends up destroying the lives of everyone, including the person, Michael Moran, who happens to have this alter ego, Miracle Man. Now, as Jack mentioned earlier, it is just a ripoff of Captain Marvel.

[00:19:03] It's literally a ripoff of Captain Marvel and the Marvel family. And as we all know, Captain Marvel, Billy Batson, he's a young boy who says the magic words, Shazam, transforms into a big, powerful superhero that seemed a bit too much like Superman. So they were sued into not publishing it. So another company got the bright idea to make a guy called Miracle Man who has the exact same powers and all the same friends and enemies and all that sort of thing.

[00:19:33] So it's just a ripoff of that. But Alan Moore, in this bizarre twist that has been stolen many times, including by Marvel Comics, decides that, OK, what if all of these, you know, this Silver Age superhero that had all these wacky adventures actually was part of some sort of government experiment? Right. Right. After finding an alien spaceship. Ends up getting stolen by, like, Weapon X.

[00:20:01] Like, they literally did that with, like, Wolverine after the fact. Yeah, they did it with Wolverine. They did it. They've done it with – they've done it several times. They did it with Sentry, I think, is the name of it. Yeah, Sentry is another one. They were kind of trying to make Sentry their Miracle Man, I feel like, before they bought Miracle Man. Exactly, exactly. And so the first complication that Moore introduces is the fact that when Michael Moran transforms into Miracle Man, he's not actually the same person. Right.

[00:20:30] That being has the same memories as him, but his brain is different. He's smarter. He's more clever, more charming. And so just that central conflict that he introduces, the idea that you can transform into a better version of yourself anytime you want, but what does that mean for the lesser version of yourself?

[00:20:54] I mean, you can get a whole 100-issue comic just out of that little thing. And that's just something Alan Moore just tosses among many, many other ideas that really challenge at the core what superheroism is.

[00:21:11] Well, I love how they have Kid Marvel Man basically never actually growing and only becoming a more evil version of himself because he is a child with all the powers in the world, which is, of course, like what would actually be happening with little Billy Batson. Yeah. Showing the need to actually grow and to not just be stuck in this one idealized form. Well, I also think the Kid Miracle Man thing is so interesting in so many ways.

[00:21:40] First of all, it's like the reversal of the idea that he's doing with Michael Moran, which is kind of like if you could switch bodies, wouldn't the other body end up not ever wanting to switch back to you? You know what I mean? Like why would the other body ever want to be weak and powerless you? And then it also, I think, with the Kid Miracle Man character, it really speaks to what power actually is and what someone who's obsessed with being powerful would actually do.

[00:22:10] Which is like become an evil and sick CEO. And then, you know, in the actual like third book, you know, do actual sort of like God level, you know, apocalypse atrocities to London. One thing about this book that I think is very different than books today, especially 2000s going forward.

[00:22:30] Like if this came out in 2000s era, like Joe Quesada Marvel, that first issue would have been like the 12 issue miniseries or 12 issue arc in and of itself. Compressed, yes. It moves at a very fast clip. Like I almost got whiplash because I'm not used to things moving that quickly anymore. And it was interesting how much information was in there. Like I forgot how fast things went.

[00:22:57] Like he was already meeting Kid Miracle Man and is in the building and is having a showdown. And I was like, are we still in the first issue? And I looked. I'm like, oh, yeah, for sure. It's the first issue. And I'm like, if this was like Ultimate Marvel or something or. We would meet this Kid Miracle Man guy and then like 50 issues later he would go evil, you know. Oh, yeah. Like page 40 when Kid Miracle Man is evil and we're having the fight.

[00:23:24] It's really because like Alan Moore has enough ideas that he like wants to get through. Exactly. You know, this is kind of a long series and it does get dense toward the end. But like, yeah, what you're saying is right. Like he had there's so many ideas in there that it just moves at such a clip. And the first issue would have been probably when he said Komoda. Like it would have been just one episode just getting to him saying Komoda.

[00:23:48] Like I'm thinking about Ultimate Spider-Man and like how damn long it took for Uncle Ben to die. It was like issue five. You know, I actually clocked it. So the first, you know, six issues of Ultimate Spider-Man do the first, I think, 15 pages of Amazing Fantasy. I think. However that story is. And does not add much. The reason I bring it up is like the only part where I think that kind of suffers. For the most part, I think it's a good thing.

[00:24:17] But the only part that kind of suffers is explaining like what exactly made Kid Miracle Man grow up so evil. I mean, there's kind of an explanation and it's good enough. But that would probably be the only thing I was a little more curious about. Because I feel like Adam Moore being Adam Moore, if he wanted to dedicate more time to it, could have had a very fascinating character study there. Yeah, I actually do agree with that.

[00:24:45] That's probably the one little thing that I don't really buy. But I think the thing is like Alan Moore just is so critical of superheroes that the idea of someone having superpowers all this time. And he does explain this idea later on in other comics. Certainly in Watchmen, he goes over this. The inhumanity. Inhumanity, it would naturally breathe in you to be the superpower being. Like the disdain for humans, you know? Yeah. And the only one.

[00:25:14] And then no one knowing who you are. That would be like... I think, yeah, certainly Trevor. Like we could have used a few pages like on that showing the story. I did want to point out like this book is hyper, hyper, hyper critical of every single aspect of the superhero mythos. It's like it mostly is a satirization of modern superheroes. He said at the time, not the silver age ones, but actually the ones that were coming out in the 80s.

[00:25:42] He said they were just so boring and dull and silly that he wanted to do something at least somewhat connected to the real world. And that was birthed Miracle Man. And he just has like there's no superhero shit in this outside of the first issue, really. Like Miracle Man, I think, stops like a bank robbery or something like that. After that, there's no traditional superhero stuff.

[00:26:08] It's just like ultra violence for sometimes no reason. Even Miracle Man gets into it. Like there's one panel where Miracle Man bashes two people's heads together and just kills them. And so there's no like notion that this guy, this Miracle Man, whoever he is, is like a superhero here to save the day necessarily.

[00:26:32] He has kind of his own wants and desires and will absolutely crush anybody who kind of gets in the way of that. Well, the thing is, I mean, there, you know, there is the line where they say the monsters are back. And of course, he's referring to them as well as the other like more traditional monsters. But what is he going to do? He goes and rescues his wife from some Nazis who were trying to replicate these evil powers.

[00:26:58] And like, you know, he's actually engaging in like just literally and figuratively like destroying the Nazi mythology of the Superman. I mean, so yeah, like, and thank God we don't have to watch, you know, Miracle Man, like fighting bank rompers or other bullshit. Yes, yes. But I'm happy to watch him go into Latin America and like kill some Nazis who are like, oh, I literally wrote down their line. They're like, oh, for decades, we've been dreaming.

[00:27:26] For 40 years, we've waited for the blonde gods that would replace us over them. Yeah, you can go now. Like, I mean, I think that it's not like it's showing that it's there's horror, but there's also and it's a satire, but it is also doing things with the characters that we would want to have seen. Like, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, you can't you can't undercut like that. It just wants to be cool. You know what I mean?

[00:27:52] Like that sometimes you want to have like cool, like, you know, that the fight scenes are extreme. And I feel like he wanted to do something more connected to the real world. Then, you know, there is kind of cool ultra violence in this comic, along with all the sort of big and clever ideas and this real meditation on Shazam. What's so funny is, like Leslie said, there's only really superhero stuff in the first issue.

[00:28:17] And then from that point on, it's really just like all he's really doing is like thinking about what Shazam is and trying to make sense of it. You know, it's like he like looks at it. He's like, what if this was like in reality? And how would you actually make sense of of those events? You know, and I think it goes to some really interesting places to sort of examining this character. Sure.

[00:28:41] I kind of downplayed the last third of the book or like the epilogue of the book, mainly because it was just a lot of words. And I think I was younger and I was like, right. Okay, exactly. The killing's over. And this is kind of cool, but I get it. Everybody's happy. But, you know, like this time I read it and it was so integral. It was funny to me looking back that I just kind of. Right. My eyes glazed over a lot of that prose and I just sped through it.

[00:29:09] In general, I think there's not really many wasted words in this at all. And I think I skipped a lot of captions, too, when I was reading it, you know, because I'm like, okay, I get what's going on. I don't have to read all these captions. So, yeah, that last part of the book was like so integral and so important. Like the quiet moments are as important as the cool and the violent moments in a way that didn't jump out at me last time.

[00:29:35] But something else that I thought was very interesting, and these parts I did remember, but I just didn't really think about them in this way. But how psychoanalytical it all is and how it is very much like a meditation on self-hatred and narcissism. And, you know, like the idea of like narcissism that most people agree on is that there's a hated, like despised self.

[00:30:02] And then you construct a perfect, grandiose self to cover up your hated, despised self. And, you know, the disowned parts of you, the parts that you can't handle, become your shadow if you're into the youngie and stuff.

[00:30:22] And a lot of the scenes with both Mike Moran and Johnny Bates are very much about two people dealing with their particular forms of self-hatred. And it's very, very literal in the mindscape of Johnny Bates. And one thing that jumped out at me differently this time from the first time is I thought of Johnny Bates as very, very innocent and good.

[00:30:49] And there's a line here, you know, where Kid Miracle Man is saying inside Johnny Bates' head, I'm sick of hearing your I didn't do it. You're me. You understand that? Right. Don't you? You are me. And then Johnny Bates is like, but I wouldn't hurt people. I wouldn't kill people. It was you who did that, not me.

[00:31:10] And then Kid Miracle Man is like, little Johnny Bates wouldn't kill anyone because little Johnny Bates is a cowardly little puddle of puke, snotty little virgin. But once little Johnny Bates finds a magic word that puts him beyond punishment, why he doesn't mind killing people at all. Kind of made me think about Johnny Bates a little bit differently that, you know, they are the same person is the same mind. And there's this kind of application of responsibility. Right.

[00:31:39] And I got the feeling that Johnny Bates was a part of him that liked being Kid Miracle Man in the sense that I didn't get the first time I read it. And that he denied it even to himself. Yeah, that's very interesting, actually. I kind of didn't think I didn't I didn't notice that line. And yeah, kind of only really saw Johnny Bates as like a hostage in his own body. But that that's that's an interesting line from Kid Miracle Man there.

[00:32:04] Yeah, I think he actually believes he is like I think part of the reason why Kid Miracle Man is so evil. And what I think Moore's trying to say is because Johnny can't own those feelings. So they end up all going to Kid Miracle Man. Like like Johnny Bates has been like a weakling his whole life and all that resentment and everything has been created in this other construct.

[00:32:30] That's what I meant when I was saying I'd be so interested if more expanded on that a little bit, because I think that's kind of a clue as to how Kid Miracle Man became evil, because it seems like Johnny, the human Johnny Bates has been a doormat or wrecked with self-hatred like his whole life. Interesting.

[00:32:51] There's a lot of Jekyll and Hyde like directly in this, especially with the way the different bodies relate to each other. Like I it reminded me a lot of like the actual like Jekyll and Hyde. And speaking of Jekyll and Hyde, Moore did tackle Jekyll and Hyde. And he had a similar thing going on where he said the reason why Hyde got so big was because Jekyll couldn't own his dark side.

[00:33:20] I think his dark side in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was like he liked looking at like little boy porn or something. And he just couldn't handle that about himself, that he was gay and that everything he kept suppressing made Hyde get bigger and bigger over the years. So, yeah, I think it's a very good good analogy. And I think he probably was exploring more of the same that he's exploring here.

[00:33:46] I mean, Moran, too, is kind of portrayed as like, you know, kind of like pudgy and down on himself. Like he feels like he's stupid. He feels like he can't like satisfy his wife and everything like that. He's not a breadwinner, too. That's another thing. You know, starts becoming Miracle Man and is able to make love to his wife. He comments on how he's smarter and everything like that. Oh, wait, wait. Hold up. Let's pause the episode right now for a little bit of session. Let's bring it to the red couch. Oh, boy.

[00:34:15] Was it cheating when she slept with Miracle Man? Oh, that's the question is, what has she been told? Uh-huh. Right. And because we have so little from her perspective. Right. I mean, to be clear, I don't think that anything she could be doing in this context could be considered as cheating. But to the point as to whether or not it's fucked up for Miracle Man to have slept with her. Was it fucked up for Miracle Man? Was that deception on his part?

[00:34:45] No. If he wasn't clear with her, then yeah, absolutely. But I just don't know what he told me. I think it's a little fucked up of Miracle Man. And then I actually also think it's a little fucked up of Mike Moran, who I think, like Kid Miracle Man, like maybe shares a little more with Miracle Man than he lets on. You know what I mean? It's like he wants to be this idealized version. But then while also is like simultaneously jealous of this idealized version of himself. I'll take it to another level.

[00:35:12] I don't think she was cheating because to cheat, you have to lie. And I think everybody was honest. I will say, is Mike Moran his own cuck? I think that's what happened. Yeah. That's a little more what it is. Mike Moran has cucked himself. He cucked himself. Yeah. Mike Moran cucked himself. The story doesn't care enough about Liz to tell us what she knows or when she knows it.

[00:35:37] So it could either be she perceives them to be the same person at first and she begins to sense the differences between them and begins to reflect on that more as time goes on. But in the initial time where they're first hooking up, we don't know if she understands there'll be different people or not. And if he didn't tell her that, then that's fucked up. But if he did, then everything's essential. Go do what you want. Have fun, kids. You know. But I definitely think that the sexual implications of having the idealized body is really one of the fixations of the story.

[00:36:03] I mean, you mentioned earlier not having really had the stomach to go through some of the detailed prose when you were younger. And I totally get that. That was one of the things that I had to go back and look at again when I was reading it when I got tired. But then I'm writing down quotes. I just have to read out loud this quote from Miracle Woman from one of her – I mean, maybe the second or third issue she's in, which is – and she's explaining her origin.

[00:36:26] And yet whenever I could be alone, I'd pull this perfect body on like a glove or piece of fine expensive hose, exalting in its singing flesh and lucid crystal thoughts, tuning it secretly into an unsurpassed device of joy and excellence. Oh, my God. So good. Yeah. It almost gets into this idea of like what our bodies are in general, which I thought was really kind of fascinating.

[00:36:49] And what I was going to say about Miracle Man also just on Mike Moran is he in the end also kind of does what Kid Miracle did. You know what I mean? He like basically stays in the body at the end and like ends up, you know, like we said, we saw it from his perspective. But sort of like, you know, being all powerful and controlling the world more or less. I mean, one thing to be clear, they're not different people as in different minds because it seems like what Gargunza – They share memories, yeah.

[00:37:18] It's the same brain with a chip in it. But what I grasp that the bodies are superior physically and mentally as far as like the brain. So when the mind goes into the better physical – like it's like better hardware, the brain. So what I got from it is the same person. It's like a PlayStation 5. Yeah. Yeah. So he was saying my – it's me, but my thoughts are like poetry. Yeah.

[00:37:46] You're moving your save game from PS4 to PS5. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That's not cheating. That's not cheating. It's not cheating. But then again, like you go, how does that make your PS4 feel? That's the question. And that's – they wrangle with that, yeah. And is your PS4 or PS5 just because you can upload the save to it? No, it's not. Your PS4 and your PS5 are two different pieces of hardware that just can run the same information.

[00:38:14] Well, and then we also – this all is aside from the fact because we wouldn't have known it at the time when she and Miracle Man hooked up. So it has nothing to do with the cheating question. But we end up finding later – and it's hard for me to even like really wrap my head around. But they're basically using some sort of like alien race that is able to occupy more than one body at a time. Like as they – I mean it gets very sort of metaphysical in there.

[00:38:43] So even adding that element into it, like is it cheating by those aliens if they're occupying a different body? You know what I mean? Like I really don't know. And we're supposed to be past jealousy in this moment anyway, right? Right, right. Yeah, there might even be rules for the aliens. Like you cannot possess a body that has more neurons than your native body because it may lead to changes in your personality. Yeah. Warning label. I have a question for folks though.

[00:39:13] What the fuck with Evelyn Cream? Because – Oh, yeah. There was some good stuff there. I loved Evelyn Cream. I love when a down white man tries to write it down as black man. And it almost always – it almost works. I think it's pretty good. I even liked that Alan Moore sat down and thought to himself, what do black men have fucked up weird hangups about? He tried.

[00:39:39] I don't know if I've ever thought I might be mistaken for being into juju or something necessarily. I don't know about you, Trevor. Maybe this may be more something – because we don't – I don't know if we're given where he's from. We just know he's black. But maybe if he's Afro-Caribbean. No, we have no idea if he's British. We know nothing. Sorry. Yeah. He may be Afro-Caribbean. Then maybe I can see that anxiety working out. But I think it was an honest effort.

[00:40:05] And we actually do get to learn about him, his character, his motivations. He surprises us with his actions because we're just supposed to think he's some mercenary who's just going to – No, he's great. He becomes like a psychic. The co-star for all of book two pretty much. It's great. Yeah. So I end up digging him. I even liked the Diamond Teeth, which predates Diamond Grills by a couple of decades. So Alan Moore, again, innovating.

[00:40:31] I kind of felt the same way where at first I was like, oh boy, is Evelyn Cream going to be rough or something? But then by the end I was like, oh no, Evelyn Cream is like a real deal character who's along for the ride here. I dug Evelyn Cream. I thought one thing that was interesting insight on the behalf of Alan Moore, there's a part where I don't realize it's Evelyn Cream talking to himself. I thought it was like him and Dennis Archer or something talking by phone or intercom.

[00:41:00] It's like – I mean, I'm still not sure. It's that page that says inside story and it says, Mr. Cream, it is you. I am addressing, sir. It is you to whom I refer. And then it says, really old horse. These antics smack of daub face and ostrich plume. It seems – Oh, yeah, yeah. One cannot take the jungle out of the boy after all. What do you say, Mr. Cream? Right.

[00:41:23] Now, was that him talking to himself or was that him on the phone with – because instead of Dennis Archer would sit – It's him talking to himself with the sarcastic voice of generic colonial white man. So that's what that was.

[00:41:39] I thought what was interesting in that page is that he kind of shows like the double bind that a lot of black men feel where it's like if you do anything that seems too primitive or violent, it can't just stand on its own. It's got to be proof that you're regressing to type and that you're primal after all. But if you do the opposite of that and do what is considered civilized, then they say, good God, sir, you are practically white.

[00:42:08] So he's kind of – That was inside. I like that. Yeah. And a double bind. And I thought that is actually like a lot better, I think, insight than we get from a lot of like, you know, the so-called black renaissance stuff that we read now. You know, that's just about representation. I thought that was a very kind of interesting thought about that, you know, double bind that you kind of get into. And I thought that was impressive of more to just have that in a throwaway page. Yeah.

[00:42:34] I mean, the name choice is also like asking us to think about that. Yeah. It's kind of asking us to think about race just in his name alone. Yeah. Also masculinity because he has a female first name. Yeah. True. True. True. I was looking for some information about the backstory of Miracle Man because I forgot a lot of it. As far as the behind the scenes stuff, I was trying to remember. Oh, wow. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. And I found something by accident, like an insight that I wasn't looking for.

[00:43:04] But I thought it was interesting. And I wanted to read it to you guys to see what you thought. But some guy at this site called nerditis.com, and usually any site with a name like that, I think it's going to be like a Chris Hardwick type site. I thought it was going to be something terrible. You know, like one of those nerd crew type sites. But it actually has some good points. But I had this paragraph. It says, here's my final word on Alan Moore's Miracle Man. There was talk throughout the series of Mike Moran being a coward.

[00:43:32] And I think here at the end, meeting the final Alan Moore arc, they are finally right. As I said before, I don't think there is any real difference between Mike Moran and Miracle Man. They are the same man. Mike was not a coward before. He was just an ordinary guy, and he did not value himself. And even as Miracle Man, Mike still does not value the man he was. But by being Miracle Man, he is able to run away from that.

[00:44:01] Everything he is doing as Miracle Man allows him to run away from his self-esteem issues. When he was just Mike Moran, he was no more or less brave than anyone else. Being Miracle Man is what really has turned him into a coward. I thought that was a pretty good... Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Yeah. The idea that Miracle Man is a bigger coward than Mike Moran, I thought was an interesting insight. Well, it certainly has a lot less vulnerability, right? Yeah.

[00:44:28] I mean, one of the things that I picked up reading this comic is that everything that happens with Kid Miracle Man is Miracle Man's fault. Like, he does... The first time he transforms, he beats him up, sends him back to the other place. The kid comes out, and Miracle Man just kind of leaves him hanging. Doesn't do anything for him. Doesn't check in on him.

[00:44:52] And he even mentions later, and he does say, yeah, this is my fault because I just didn't care or think about it. And when we mention, like, there's not superhero stuff in it really is because, like, he really at no point does he say, like, okay, I have all these powers. How can I use this to help the helpless, help other people? Until we get to the end where he just does it in all kind of one fell swoop, right? Right. Well, it's Miracle Woman who helps inspire him to decide to do that.

[00:45:22] Yeah, yeah. And yeah, she's the one with the vision. So it's like, so he spends the majority of the comic with this, you know, hyper focus on, like, finding out his origins, getting revenge on the people that wronged him, basically. And then the aliens come trying to put down what they call these animals who have somehow gotten a hold of their technology. And then he gets this idea.

[00:45:48] He sees the level he was at and how there's a whole galaxy out there of civilizations, of peoples with so much more than he has. And he decides to build it on Earth. I want to talk about the art a little bit, because I just feel like we haven't quite gone there. I didn't really know. I mean, I know Alan Davis's art with Excalibur. And I definitely was like, I would not have immediately recognized that as his. It's sort of an intermediate point in his work there.

[00:46:17] But what I recognized immediately was when John Tottlebun showed up and suddenly it's like, oh, God, is this Swamp Thing? Oh, yeah. And how weird, how weird it was to see. I mean, just the sheer amount of like hatching and stippling like that Tottlebun is doing here is so distinctive and also a style that I associate with Swamp Thing and horror.

[00:46:41] Seeing it in this particular like kind of superhero, more focused story is so bizarre. And I love it, but it's just really weird. And I think that one of the other things that's special about the way this is drawn is it also is keeping the figures of like, and this isn't just him, this is all the writers through the book. It's keeping the figures of Miracleman like he's built like a golden age superhero. He's not built like a 1980s superhero.

[00:47:11] And they like even talk about that specific choice. You know, she's like, well, in order to do these things, you'd have to have muscles the size of a beach ball. But you look more like a, you know, more like a dancer. So their visual reference points are not coming from the comics of the period at all. I mean, it's I'm looking at like science fiction magazines that are older. There's a ton of Art Nouveau, like all of the space architecture that he brings in is all really, really Art Nouveau.

[00:47:39] So, I mean, the closest comics artist I can think to that is what, you know, Barry Windsor Smith or some of the art for the original Elric comics. And I'm blanking on the guy's name and I'm going to fucking shoot myself because I don't remember. But the art is really special. I mean, one of the scenes that is just exuberant in a way that was like they just did this to be nice and they didn't even need to is when he's flying Liz in the truck that he has heated while she's about to give birth.

[00:48:07] And they go through a flock of flying flamingos. Oh, so cool. Right? What a panel. Oh, I like the thought put into. Yeah, he can't fly her there because she would like freeze. You know, you can't just be like flying human beings around in the lower atmosphere. And it made for so much more of like a unique and memorable moment. The artist is so good. I mean, we haven't mentioned the fact that there is an issue that's just about a woman giving birth in great detail. Oh, yeah.

[00:48:37] Absolutely go in there. Yeah. And, you know, it really, really goes there. It's really like an unflinching view of birth in the middle of this superhero comic. I think it works really well, actually. And it's like a touching. It's a touching sequence. Like, I feel like that's another one I didn't appreciate as well when I was younger. I was kind of like, whoa, crazy. And now I'm like, I was like, you know, this is like it's kind of beautiful. You know what I mean?

[00:49:06] And it's like, you know, very human or something. A lot of people consider Chuck Austin's art like the weak point of the whole series. And when I reread it, I actually didn't mind it that much. I didn't dislike it as much as I remember it. I was surprised at how much I didn't like Rick Beich's art this time around. Oh. The faces just really got on my nerves. Like, the storytelling is very good.

[00:49:36] But Liz's faces are just kind of crazy during. I mean, I don't know what's going on, but a lot of the faces just didn't work for me. I do see what you're saying. They are a bit cartoonish. Yeah. It's not even cartoonish. There's a page where she's in the car. I guess cartoonish is the word. But she looks like she's just old and haggard. And she doesn't look like the same person, really, in some parts. Yeah. He doesn't always draw even the boundaries of shapes. Right. But it doesn't... I know what you're saying.

[00:50:05] I mean, it doesn't bother me, but I know what you're saying. You know, one thing also just about the pregnancy, though, is I'm so used to, in comics, in genre fiction especially, but, I mean, frankly, in media as a whole, so many stories take it as a given that anytime a woman is pregnant, she's like, hooray, Terminator. Like, she gets pregnant by John Connor. They have sex once. And she's like, yeah, I'm going to keep this baby. I'm sorry. No, nobody's fucking keeping that baby.

[00:50:29] In this story, when she reveals to Mike Moran that she's pregnant, it's like, we'd been wanting to do this and now I'm pregnant. While the whole question of who's actually the dad isn't necessarily something that's clear. And while it becomes more of a horror as time progresses, you know, with a baby controlling her mind, et cetera, like, at least there was an initial conversation around, does she want to be pregnant before that happens? And then they actually go and look at, like, the ways in which childbirth is painful and scary and actually a big deal.

[00:50:59] So that was nice and not expected because it just doesn't happen in most comics or anything by men generally. Yeah. I was going to say, like, you know, what I originally thought you were going to say is that so often in comics when people get pregnant, they actually just time jump. Like, we don't ever see. We so often don't see pregnancy in comics at all. In this, you see pregnancy and, like, yeah, the full on birth. And we do get a time jump with the baby, which because, you know, you know, nobody wants to sit with this, like, infant that can do nothing for years at a time.

[00:51:29] Like, people are always time jumping children and babies in comics for a reason. It's true. But this one actually is like, hey, this is freaking terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. There was at least a moment in this one. They didn't just straight time jump. They at least had, like, the scary moment where, like, the baby is too smart and is talking and stuff like that, which was very eerie. When the baby starts talking to her, like, we need to talk about mom.

[00:51:53] I will never forget that pal is so creepy and also very funny, too, because he's shocked by it as well. Father, I think it's time we discuss mother, don't you? Fucking, like, seeing Superman genuinely surprised by something. It's kind of nice. It's pretty funny. There was a weird storyline in this comic book called Star Brand when Marvel had this new universe line.

[00:52:20] John Byrne took over it and it became the Star Brand and the superhero character in it had a baby and everything. And he did this exact thing. Like, it's amazing to me because I know that in general, I think John Byrne doesn't have kind of things to say about Alan Moore. But it's so similar. There's no way it can't be ripped off.

[00:52:44] The Star Brand character has a baby that says basically a super power talking wise, profound baby that flies to the father and has a heart to heart with him and then says I have to go. It's pretty much a comics tradition when you're a hack writer at this point to talk shit about Alan Moore and then just like fully rip off his ideas. It's like such tradition at this point. Let's talk about it. All right.

[00:53:10] So Grant Morrison got a lot of credit for bringing in all the goofy older continuity from Batman's, you know, Golden Age, Silver Age stories into modern continuity with various explanations. Right. Alan Moore, in this comic, does it 30 years earlier in a way that's not just about, hey, remember when? No, nobody fucking remembers those comics, Grant Morrison.

[00:53:40] They suck. Nobody read those crappy comics. And you brought all that stuff back for no reason. Right. Well, sorry. But listen, I'm with you. I sometimes not. I'm into all the Morrison slander. But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that, you know, that it is true as well. I was just saying like the way that Alan Moore brings in those past stories with it being some sort of government mind control experiment.

[00:54:07] And in each of those panels where the government is talking about, like the superhero notion, they're like, what is a really simplistic story we can tell to mind control someone and turn them into a weapon? Oh, it's, of course, American superhero comics. Right. And it goes into the meta narrative because the reason that Miracle Man actually stopped being published and Alan Moore read Milkman when he was a child.

[00:54:34] The reason it stopped being published is because they changed some of the importing laws and they were able to import American comic books in to the UK. And so the black and white Miracle Man comic books couldn't compete against, you know, Batman and Superman in full color. And so that notion that the American superhero as an idea being destructive is embedded in this.

[00:54:58] And even the inferior, natural inferiority, the feelings of inferiority of British superhero comics, because, of course, Big Ben is like the perfect embodiment of like the Captain Britain. Like, yes, American superhero, but shitty. And that's what the UK version. That was amazing. Yeah.

[00:55:20] I mean, listen, I've said this about Morrison before is, you know, where this book, it feels like it takes everything about Miracle Man as true and, you know, examines all of it. It also places it in the real world. And sometimes with Morrison, while I do like their stuff, it kind of feels like they don't have much to say outside of about DC comics. And listen, I'm as obsessed with DC comics and DC metanarratives as anybody. So it's it works for me.

[00:55:48] But I do feel like there's like maybe more of like a richness and a real worldness to Moore's work. I mean, I think you identified a contemporary problem. But I think if you go back at the Invisibles, it's a lot more social commentary about that. Invisibles is really good. You're absolutely right. Yeah. But what you're talking about is true. You know, I see what they see that now. But the problem with the Invisibles is that I think it's even more about Morrison than their other stuff, because King Mob is so Morrison.

[00:56:17] And then King Mob is saying, yeah, you know, I'm a tantric sex god. And, you know, I have so much sex and I'm so cool. What did a lot of British writers do that I just can't take with a lot of them is they love having these kind of self insert characters. Or they just have the British person just be like the snarkiest, best person, whether it's Jenny Sparks in Authority. Or it's like I was reading that one that was by Warren Ellis.

[00:56:47] Warren Ellis loves these characters. Next wave. And and Ella Bloodstone is British. So she's always the only one that's not a moron. It just has a perfect bon mot for everything. And then even like the boys, I tried to read the boys, which was horrible. But the butcher was like the British guy who's just always smirking and remused at everything. And is just. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Trevor, you about to get us like capped out here. Did you just Irish? Irish.

[00:57:17] Or Garth Inish is Irish. He's not British. Whoa. Wait, wait. OK, so he's a UK guy. Yeah, but they're going to have an issue. Let's say the UK writers. I will switch to UK writers. Very careful. Yeah. Yes. But can I say my favorite writer stand in is actually in the one like random reprint issue of Miracle Man because we have Catherine Ironwood, or I think that's how you pronounce her last

[00:57:44] name showing up to be like, hey, guys, we actually couldn't get the issue to print in time because our office is flooded. That was great. I love her so much with her like shag hair and her glasses. Just being like, so here's some classic back issues. Like, we're not going to pretend that this is like Doctor Strange having a flashback and thinking about this thing that happened in the past. This is just a reprint. But we think it's cool. Check it out. And I'm like, oh, my God, I love her. I would love a biography or a documentary or something about her life because she's just one of those

[00:58:14] amazing humans. For folks who don't know, she was one of the publishers of Eclipse Comics, which was an American. They bought a lot of used IP and put out a lot of interesting horror comics like The Heap and like Airboy before stuff went to shit. And this, you know, Eclipse put out Miracle Man in the US. And then like they went out of business partially because their offices flooded in like a freak accident.

[00:58:37] And then she rent and she started like launching a brand of Voodoo spirituality sales materials. And I think she's friends with J.R.R. Martin. So I don't know. Interesting life. Interesting life. But she shows up. She's and she's literally like, hi, this is me, the editor telling you it's not coached in any cool costumes. She's actually looks like she probably hasn't showered. In fact. Yeah, that was very cool. That that issue.

[00:59:04] I like that one, too, because as sort of prestige and, you know, highfalutin as Miracle Man feels, I like that because I was like, yeah, this was still monthly comics. You know what I mean? I like stuff like that to kind of remind me this was a monthly serialized comic. And, you know, it's not all so serious. Yeah. Printing an anthology at that. Can you imagine going down to where they buy comics from in the UK? What do you call it? What do they call it? The shop? The comic?

[00:59:34] The bookie shop or some shit like that? I don't know. The picture bookie shop. And you go there and you're buying, you know, this massive, this big anthology and you're getting like pieces of one of the greatest comics works of all time. And can you imagine? The old British comics just in general are really cool. And, you know, we were talking about the art and the hatching a little bit earlier. And, you know, British comics just did have like a different sort of look to them.

[01:00:02] Like they all had that kind of like softer, sometimes like pencil drawing look, like a lot more hatching and stuff. I think the printing process was slightly different there. Probably the lack of color, too. The prints were to probably do more work to make sure like fabrics can be differentiated. And by the way, I put a link to the Star Brand cover that you can take a look at just to see. I will do so. Of how clearly I feel like he's ripping off.

[01:00:29] Oh, that looks always exactly the same. It's like, wow, that's funny. You know what was also a direct tribute is that whole scene where Miracle Man is showing off his powers, showing out his powers with Liz out in the countryside. That's in the Shazam movie. Like, I don't know if any of you guys deigned to watch the recent Shazam movie. I did see that, but I kind of did not remember that that was such a direct. And it's Shazam. So it's like Captain Marvel. So 100% intentional.

[01:00:58] Just such an Uroboros at this point, you know, that Miracle Man is now influencing Shazam, who's really Captain Marvel, but they're not allowed to use that name. There's so much to talk about. I mean, we may have to return this, but we've been talking for over an hour. But is there anything else y'all want to point out? I want to ask you a quick question, because I actually have the original issues in digital

[01:01:26] form already on my iPad. So I already had like the 16 issue more run. But you sent me something that I guess was the Marvel collection or re-release. What was really fascinating to me about it was I'm used to DC and Marvel, like re-releasing stuff, right? For example, Killing Joke. DC messed up the coloring in Killing Joke by making it too modern and cool. And it actually like backfires. And I have to give Marvel credit.

[01:01:54] Like, I kept flipping back and forth to the old Eclipse coloring. And I don't know if it's recolored or what. But for the most part, whenever I flip back and forth, it looked pretty much the same as Eclipse colored it. I think it's recolored, but like with an eye to detail and very tastefully. You know, I don't really like Marvel that much either. And I think the whole ownership of Miracle Man has obviously been very complicated and kind of annoying. But I think they did a really good job on this re-release.

[01:02:23] And you do get the sense. I swear, I think Joe Quesada is like a big Miracle Man fan or something, because I feel like it got like a slightly more serious and decent treatment than a lot of the kind of IP they purchased. It seemed like they deferred to the Eclipse coloring whenever they could, because I was pretty impressed. Real quick thing on a side note. In that thing that Leslie sent, I don't know if anybody has it handy, but on page two, doesn't

[01:02:53] Miracle Man look like Michael Brooks, RIP? I don't know who. Oh, he does. Yeah. Oh, wow. He's actually, he's based on Paul Newman. Miracle Man is actually, he's supposed to look like Paul Newman. Yeah, he looks kind of like a mystery between Paul Newman and Michael Brooks. Sorry, show me, because I'm a high judge of Paul Newman-ness, and I have not as I would like to. Page two of the version that Leslie sent, the collection.

[01:03:20] So in general, he's supposed to look like Paul Newman, like every panel, not just that one, but every, like when they created him, they based him on Paul Newman. Okay. Or even Mick Angle. Yeah. Is it Mick Angle they just say? I don't know. Okay. I guess. I don't know. I don't, I don't feel it. Oh, not in the Mick Angle, but when the, when they did the Alan Moore release, they decided to make it. Yeah. I mean, I would love to come back to it again, too.

[01:03:47] I mean, we have so much to cover here in the Alan Moore podcast, but I would be down to do, to do some double, double dipping here. Yeah. Cause you can always do like issue by issue. Cause there's so much, there's so dense. There's so much. I have so many thoughts about so many splash pages and panels from the artistic design, but one thought about Paul Newman, if he is in fact supposed to look at Paul Newman, which I personally don't see is as interesting because he has the Uber mentioned and Paul Newman is Jewish. Ah, interesting. Interesting.

[01:04:16] That is interesting. That's funny. That's funny. So let's talk about a little bit about the splash panels. What's your, what's your favorite piece of art? Because as hackneyed as it might be to say, I do, I mean the absolute devastation of London panel where the woman doesn't have any arms or eyes and their kids don't have eyes and they're walking through the streets. That's just absolutely chilling.

[01:04:42] And then one of the, I mean, it's one of the all time panels of comics. That's like, that's like berserk or something. It's like truly terrifying. I had a question for you guys. I mean, I'm going to answer the splash page question, but just afraid to forget this. Is the nurse that kid miracle man, um, kills, is it all one nurse throughout, but it just miscolored her blonde in that panel? Or is she the same one from the very beginning, um, from, from the time that she's trying to give him food when he's a vegetable?

[01:05:12] Good question. I don't know. Actually, that's a good question. Yeah. I don't know if she was nice to him. Probably. I would assume so. Yeah. Cause you're right. It's not, it does not look consistent at all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a minor thing, but I've always just wondered that I couldn't tell. I think the reveal of kid Marvel man, like that panel of him with the lightning coming around him and his evil look and the inking on that good God, fucking terrifying, really dramatic and excellent.

[01:05:38] I mentioned the flamingo, the flight of the flamingos, but I also, the page of just the robot, the, sorry, the Android contemplating its existence. Oh yeah. Yeah. Definitely. The images in combination with the text that make it work. But that page is just stunning of the melancholy Android and it's Art Nouveau Wonderland in a bottle inside in another bottle. We didn't mention the fact that, so he makes his own fortress of solitude like Superman under the sea.

[01:06:07] It gets destroyed. So then he decides to turn palace, the planet earth into his fortress of solitude essentially. And he creates his own bottle city of Kandor just to see what would happen. And of course, in the Superman story, the Kandorians have been forced into this existence by, I think Brainiac is usually the one that does it. A supervillain. Instead, our Miracle Man, our real life Superman, he does it on a whim himself.

[01:06:36] And he's waiting for the denizens to realize that he's God, but he's disappointed that they don't have a word for God yet. Yeah, he's running an experiment in consciousness, basically. Jack, did you have any favorite splash pages? When Kid Miracle Man like has decimated, has decimated London is such a big one. And then I feel like there's an early one that is just kind of a very classic, you know,

[01:07:04] Miracle Man flying in the sky one that I remember being striking. But I have to also echo, you know, the horrendous. I feel like it's a double page spread of when Kid Miracle Man gets loose again. The two I wanted you guys took. So I'm like flipping through trying to find another one. The one that I was going to say was actually the same panel about the lightning and the grin. I thought that was really cool.

[01:07:32] And I also felt that way about this, the carnage scene in London in general. So being that those are taken away, I would say probably the other one I liked was the picture. Like the very, very last panel where he's looking out across the sky, across space and thinking about his wife. I thought that was a nice one. Yeah. And I also like the one where Emil Gargunza finds the ship. I don't know how Alan Davis drew that ship, but. Oh, yeah.

[01:08:00] Something about the effect that they used to give that ship a weird texture. Something about the way that ship looked in that splash page. I really like. Yeah, the ship is truly trippy and truly alien. Like when you watch any kind of movie or TV sci-fi, the ships just look like versions of our ships because they have to have actual physical people walking around in them. They have chairs and shit like that. But this is an act.

[01:08:26] But since this is a comic book, they have like an actual alien ship that no one can figure out what it is or how it works. They talked about a machine that had intestines and some sort of strange water that transferred electricity. Like all the sorts of weird shit that they obviously couldn't even begin to figure out. And it just, you know, Miracle Man is just one of these the best examples of the power of comics.

[01:08:53] Just to go anywhere in all these different places starts off with the, you know, the 60s superhero vignette that Adam Moore shows us, which we learn is actually a false hologram. It moves into this family drama between this guy named Mike Moran and his wife Liz and their struggles being, you know, nearly middle age and not really being happy with their lives. And then it becomes this bizarre, like violent, like crime, revenge, spy thriller.

[01:09:21] And then it becomes like this thing that you've never seen before, but has been copied so often where, you know, what happens if the Superman decides, well, fuck it. I'm tired of fighting Lex Luthor. I'm not talking to the world governments. I am in charge now. He tells Margaret Thatcher to her face, like, do something about it. How am I not supposed to feel at least a little bit happy about that? I'm sorry.

[01:09:51] Here's a weird observation I noticed. I feel like in a lot of the Silver Age set scenes, there's a lot of shots of butts. That's supposed to be like a little homage to Gil Kane or something, because Gil Kane used to like just having butt shots. Here's the deal, we didn't talk about Miracle Woman too much, but she's a very fascinating character.

[01:10:12] And if you get into the Neil Gaiman extension of this, which I personally don't consider to be real, but do what you will. It gets a little bit more into her character and the sexuality of this. But like the point, like there's a vignette where when she talks about her Silver Age adventures, it's like a parody of Marsden and Wonder Woman. And Alan Moore is just explicit about it.

[01:10:38] Like, yeah, he kept putting me in all these weird scenarios where I would end up tied up and in bondage and stuff like that for some weird reason. It didn't even make any sense most of the time. And so I think, yes, the suggestiveness is deliberate in both aspects, because Alan Moore is very, very pretty cheeky about the sexual elements of these older comics. Yeah. And there's, you know, like a real mix of nudity as well, which is like, again, like a choice that he's making.

[01:11:08] Right. And the artists, bless him. But I think that's a great question. Well, all right, folks. That was the Alan Moore podcast on Miracle Man. Thank you so much to our wonderful guests. Where can people find you? I was going to suggest if folks like this story, I want to see a sort of different take on these themes that is actually not Miracle Man, but it's kind of coming from the same planet.

[01:11:33] I would definitely check out the Peter Cannon Thunderbolt run that was recently-ish from Kieran Gillen and Casper Wisingard. And they can listen to an interview that I did with Kieran Gillen on my podcast, Graphic Policy Radio. And actually, if you're a Captain Marvel fan, I had a two-part interview with classic Captain Marvel artist Jerry Ordway on the podcast as well. But yeah, my comics podcast. Yeah, he was an amazing guest. Oh, that's awesome. My comics podcast, Graphic Policy Radio.

[01:12:02] I have a new DS9 spinoff podcast called Deep Space Dive. And I'm on Twitter. I'm on Twitter a little bit too much at E-L-A-N-A underscore Brooklyn. So that's me, Ilana from Graphic Policy Radio. Yeah, and you can find me at Champagne Sharks anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Just search Champagne Sharks or on YouTube. But you can just go to ChampagneSharks.com and all the links are there. A quick question.

[01:12:31] So Kieran Gillen did a Peter Cannon Thunderbolt series? Yep. It was like a six-issue miniseries just maybe a year or two ago. A year ago, maybe. And you're saying that a lot of the elements in that reminded you of this? Yeah. I mean, it's definitely his commentary on Watchmen, most of all. But there's definitely... Like Peter Cannon is the inspiration for Ozymandias. But there's a ton of Marvel Man in it as well. Oh, cool.

[01:13:00] I'm going to check that out. Thanks. Yeah. I think you'd like it. All right. That was the Alan Moore Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Have a good one. Later.

[01:13:09] It was the 3rd of February 1967, and Joe Meek was set up for a final mix.

[01:13:35] Up all night on his diet pills, his preludin', splicing and editing, Joe felt that it still needed something, some extraordinary sound. The morning light was blinding coming through the Holloway Road window, sloped across the mess of cables on the studio floor. And Joe was thinking about coins again.

[01:14:05] Around the walls were pale rectangles, after images, where Joe had taken down the paintings that he'd done and tried to burn them on his two-bar heater. They were evidence, incriminating imagery. The crying woman and Joe's favourite, the little black boys, dancing naked in the dreamy voodoo firelight.

[01:14:38] He's been standing with his back against the window. Kneeling in the wires, Joe kissed the singer's cock. The sun through Heines' white hair was like a halo. Downstairs, his studio assistant, Patrick Pink, was calling him for breakfast. Joe stamped down and drank the coffee, didn't touch the toast.

[01:15:06] Knocked back the bitter dregs, then went into the kitchen to cremate his personal papers in a dustbin. All he'd say was, they're not getting these. Eyes filling. He stared doggedly into the smoke. Given a choice of reincarnation, the most perfect thing Joe could imagine was to be the final

[01:15:36] organ riff of Telstar, rising up into celestial blue and never coming down. Joe went upstairs again and thought about life after death. All of the seances, the magic, Buddy Holly's end predicted and the iron key placed in a Bible twisted by no earthly hand. The cat in Highgate Cemetery that spoke in human tongue.

[01:16:07] He heard a new world. Sighing, he retrieved the shotgun from beneath the bed. If he could only find that sound, that ultimate Joe Meek effect. He could wrap up his mortal session, finally get it down. With all the clarity of... Of shattering glass.

[01:16:37] His landlady arrived at just the wrong time. Mrs. Shenton stumbled down the stairs with threads of woolen smoke still trailing from the distribution pattern in her back. The blast rang in the air. Joe tried imagining it with echo, maybe more compression. Leaned his forehead on the still warm muzzle. Tipped the trigger.

[01:17:06] There was the most perfect sound. It was a little bit too cold, maybe more petite cachet or just another day. But hopefully I will find it fine. you