Trevor, Brie, and Leslie discuss season one of Amazon Prime horror series Them.
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(upbeat music)
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(upbeat music)
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(upbeat music)
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(upbeat music)
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- Hi, I'm Leslie, the third of Struggle Session.
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- I am Brianna Joy Gray of Bad Faith Podcast.
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- Just Trevor Bullewer of Shambar and Shark today,
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we're talking about the new Amazon Horror Series,
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Capital H Horror Series, them, them.
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Now, if you haven't watched it,
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we'll probably begin to spoilers.
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I would suggest if you're thinking about watching it,
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if you do not own a Rob Zombie DVD,
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or maybe perhaps the Hills of Eyes,
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this is probably not the series for you.
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This is probably not the series for you.
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If you think, if you're coming in thinking,
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you're gonna get a PG-13 Get Out Esque
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Racial Thriller, that's not what the show is.
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I think that's why it's been so divisive.
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I think I'm the only one on the show
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who actually likes the show, but T.B.
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What did y'all think?
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The female protagonist's hair makeup and skin generally
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looked fabulous throughout.
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I will give them that stunning, costuming,
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just sets the color treatment visually,
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very, very compelling stuff.
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- Personally, I think is one of the best
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looking T.V. shows I've ever seen.
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A lot of Hitchcock, a lot of Hitchcock, as well.
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I mean, but there is all sorts of horror reference.
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Like I said, you have Wes Craven in there.
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You have Texas Jane Salmon massacre.
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You have European horror films like The Devils
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and all the folk horror and all the sorts of things.
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And it all looks very, very beautiful.
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I will say this, it doesn't even look like,
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it looks better than a lot of movies
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that you're asked to see in the movie theater.
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Certainly looks a lot better than coming to America
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to a lot more filmmaking women to this show than that.
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- I think, namely just to make it,
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but just physically, the actors was really beautiful
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and striking and I feel like she deserves better
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than this role.
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I would like to see her as an Angela Bassettish
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kind of role where she gets to be a little more regal.
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This was, I think, I don't know.
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Like, I like things like I spin on your grave and stuff like that,
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where people get degraded and there's a lot of horror and stuff,
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but there's a real like, come up and it's like,
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I spin on your grave, I remember correctly.
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She chops off one of the rapist penis
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and she is a straight up like wax and then left and right.
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And this one, I just felt like the revenge just did,
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I mean, to have like, what was it, eight, 10 episodes
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of this level of torture porn?
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And then the revenge just felt like,
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we're gonna stand up with a head held high at the end of this
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and we're gonna, there's a little bit of a beating,
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but it just didn't feel like the payoff was worth
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sitting through all of that.
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I think it's where it falls short from those other movies for me.
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- Well, I actually thought the ending,
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if I would not get for anything,
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I thought the ending was maybe a little bit falsely to upbeat
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because for a horror of this level,
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everyone should end up there at the end.
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- I wouldn't mind if they killed everybody
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and then went out in a glazed glory too.
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Like, I agree with you.
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I could have dealt with the ending being less upbeat,
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but I thought the upbeatness was more about keeping your dignity.
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You know what I mean?
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Which, look at it.
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- I don't know, I mean, 'cause they had already killed two people.
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Like both of the protagonists murdered people
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before they ended the show,
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the female protagonist, lucky beats,
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what's their nurse racist too?
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Because not every evil white person in this show is racist.
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That's one thing I actually liked about the show,
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there's different levels of racist.
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Some racist want to do violence somewhere.
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Like, nah, nah, we just want to scare them off legally.
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I don't want to get in trouble.
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I have a jail and shit like that.
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But yeah, they do, but the male protagonist
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just guns down the cop, not even a racist cop.
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(laughs)
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- But I think it's part of my problem,
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I'm sorry, it's the last thing I'm sorry.
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The people they kill aren't really the ones
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doing the most grief to them.
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That's the problem.
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- I put in your grave and stuff, she kills the rapist
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and then get out, like he kills the people
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specifically torturing him, but I felt like it was like
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the lesser transgressors against them
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that get killed by them, you know?
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- Yeah, I actually kind of liked that
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because it made it seem like more of control,
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like the horror, there was no real clean way out.
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Like the horror, they were constantly under attack
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from mundane racism, from a ghost as well as this trauma
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that they underwent in the past.
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And I really liked the fact that it spilled out
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in ways where they ended up turning violent
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and doing horrible things because that's what
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the horror movie is supposed to be.
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In fact, I talked about on Lovecraft Country,
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my disappointment was that is all the heroes
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made stay pretty noble throughout.
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But this is supposed to be a horror movie
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of your the protagonist of a horror movie,
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you're supposed to be fucked up by the end of it.
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You're supposed to be turning to do something,
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you're supposed to be especially with a ghost trying
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to specifically drive you to killing your family,
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like something fucked up should have.
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And I was glad that if you fucked up things happen,
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I understand the ending wasn't as pat
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because I think the problem was,
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it exists in several different genres at the same time
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and the ending genre is Haunted House,
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which I think always have the least satisfying endings
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of any horror story.
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Basically, they kind of stand up until the ghost know
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and then ask it and that's what happens in this series.
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But I felt like if maybe it was a little bit more focused
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on the genre, if it focused on the suspense aspects
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or the noir aspects,
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stuff that seems like Walter Mosley,
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that could have been one shorter series.
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Episode five was really controversial,
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but I thought that was like for like a hills,
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have eyes sort of thing or like the Devil's Rejects Rob Zombie.
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That was about the best kind of,
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that was absolutely extreme, high quality, extreme horror,
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but they didn't really go in that direction.
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They also also had like the ghost and stuff,
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which was a completely separate thing.
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I actually thought the episode nine,
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where they tell the story of this racist preacher ghost
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haunting the suburbs of California.
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I thought that was really like a really good capsule episode
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and you could just watch that episode
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without watching the rest of the series and enjoy it.
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- Would push back against the cop not being really racist.
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He's only cause playing to be kind of on their side
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because he's in league with-- - Yeah, yeah, he's being played.
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- Lady, yeah, and ultimately when the woman
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who rented in the house
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starts to kind of have some reservations
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and show some ethics,
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he's the one that threatens her to not out the scheme
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to the black people because he's in it for the money
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and wants to keep pushing all these black families
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into these predatory housing arrangements.
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So you could argue that he's the real,
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the real one of the worst in terms of the systemic issues
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that are going on here.
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- No, what I meant more was that like,
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not that he's not a villain, but that his villainy
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is not just, I hate black people, right?
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It's more complicated than that.
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And all of them, all of the races have a little bit more
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going on than that.
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I was actually surprised and I wish to show
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what's promoted more as like an ensemble horror show
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where you follow both the antagonists and the protagonist
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which is how they promote American horror stories.
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- So this is part of the problem is that you come into this
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in the first few episodes are structured around this family
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and then at one point, this black family
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and at one point, you are spinning a lot of time
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with this white woman neighbor who is evil
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and seems to be the only one that's motivated
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by pure racial hatred.
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Now, I don't, we could have a whole conversation
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about what it means to have different kinds of racial motives
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'cause I frankly think the most common kind of racism
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is one that's motivated, it's mixed in
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with these other incentives, my housing value,
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my, you know, payola, whatever it is.
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And that we don't talk as a society, you know,
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are an episode that we have on bad faith that's dropping
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the day after we record this.
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We talked to Heather McGee about how I think sometimes
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we don't do very good job of explaining racism
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in a way that white people can understand
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because we don't talk about the ways that it's explicitly
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cultivated by elites to be weaponized, you know,
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for profit to put it like really simplistically.
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But what I was watching and that when the episode
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would flip in follow these other characters,
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I did not care, I was just waiting impatiently
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to get back to the characters I had been taught to told about
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for the first few episodes.
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But they spent an inordinate amount of time with this woman
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developing backstory and plot points
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that never come up again and never go anywhere.
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And to your point, Leslie, about who ultimately gets
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to kill the baddie, she set up as one of the worst villains
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in the show and she's randomly killed by the milkman
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who abducts her and then shoots her.
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I love that.
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And the field where no one even sees it happen.
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Yeah, I feel very, I'm pretty unsatisfying to me.
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I agree with Brue.
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Oh, I loved it.
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She got exactly what she wanted.
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She wanted the, she wanted a house with a white man
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and a black people around and the milkman gave it to her.
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And then when she had a problem with that,
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he gave her something else.
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I loved her getting shot dead in the field
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and no one ever finding her body.
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I actually, they spent episodes,
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episodes, cultivating this woman as evil,
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giving our backstories so we could better understand
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what's motivating her evil, setting up a conflict
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between her and our female black protagonist.
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And then the whole sum and total of her purpose
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in the series ends up being that the fact
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that she's missing and the other white people in neighborhood
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don't know where she is, incentivizes them,
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incites them to come for the black people harder.
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So they basically supplant all of the,
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what we got really invested in this one white woman's hatred
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for this family and then they end up just using her
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as a spark to invest all these other white people
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in hating the family a lot too, instead of just building up
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those other characters.
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And so to me, it just, it felt like this like weird transitive,
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you know, like,
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and like, like, like, off-shored hatred.
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It's like, well, they could have had a gold missing
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at any point for any time.
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Why did I invest in this whole plot and narrative
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that could have been spent explaining more
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about this weird white preacher ghost?
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Like, we're gonna have to talk about this preacher ghost.
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- I just disagree.
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I think the way they did it was like really good storytellant
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is like, yeah, you think she's gonna end up in one direction
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where the milkman is gonna be the one directly confronted
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but he has another plans.
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He kills her off, but that still doesn't solve
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the problem for the black family because guess what?
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Now the white lady's missing
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and now the men who kind of didn't want to push it so far
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are now willing to push it even further.
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I actually liked that even if you take her
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out of the equation entirely, she just disappears
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and half the people think she's run off with another man.
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The racism still is there and still gets worse
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for the black family.
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- I was also kind of confused about exactly
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what these people's history or experience was
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with running black people out of town
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because the men some kind of feckless in their racism
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and they can't need her to egg them on.
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And it's like, you know, you gotta do this
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and it's like, well, we don't really want to.
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And it seems a little bit hesitant.
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They just want to just glare at them really hard for a while
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and it's just like, you gotta do more.
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But they've shown it.
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They've kind of ran to black people out of town
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and they're like being driven insane
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and something crazy happened.
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- Oh, that was the ghost.
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That was the ghost, actually.
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- So it was the ghost that was--
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- Talk about the ghost.
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- And it was a different,
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I think it was in a slightly different neighborhood.
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It wasn't that exact neighborhood.
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- So, okay, 'cause I was confused about that
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'cause it seemed to have done this before I thought.
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- No, it was not them, not them.
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- Can we talk about the ghost and what we interpreted the ghost?
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So I don't know how much you want to set this up
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at all for people who might be listening
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who haven't seen the show
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'cause we haven't really set it up at all.
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- Oh, I mean, it's too much.
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I mean, I don't know how to explain.
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It's like five or six horror movies put together.
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There's a lot going on in this show.
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- But just the purposes of,
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this is how I understood this is what I saw happening
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and I wanna know if this is what you saw happening.
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I saw, they set up that a nice young black family
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is moving into this all white town
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after something bad has happened to them
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that isn't revealed for a few episodes.
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But ultimately we discover that the wife has been brutally raped
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and their baby child has been brutally killed
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by some white people who randomly come up to their nice big
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country house in North Carolina
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out of the blue to attack them.
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Now, the husband is apparently an architect, which,
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okay.
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(laughs)
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I don't know what he was doing in North Carolina
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but it seemed like a really dramatic change of scenery
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and kind of like social context.
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It seemed like a kind of a farming, rural existence in South
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in North Carolina and then suddenly he's Mr. Suit and Ty
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waltzing into the architecture firm as the only black person,
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but okay, okay fine.
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And then to the point, you made this point on your show, T,
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the family having experienced all this racial trauma
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chooses to enter into another white neighborhood.
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And expose themselves to that again
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on the heels of the worst thing that could happen to you.
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I mean, okay, so here we are.
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Now, there's some implication in the beginning
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that maybe there's something wrong with this house.
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It's been empty, they've been trying to sell it for a while.
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But that's never really followed up on,
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is the house gonna be haunted.
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But we do discover eventually is that the neighborhood
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is on land that was occupied by settlers
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in the way back times.
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And there was a preacher who lived there
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who was a kind of a good guy thought he was speaking to God.
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But one day these black people come into town
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and he takes them and he lets them stay.
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The other white people in the town get really angry at this.
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And eventually he joins in with the other white people
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in the town and deciding to kill, to maim and kill the black people.
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And that preacher has made a deal with the devil somehow
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that he's a ghost now in the present in the 1950s or whatever.
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And he's the one that's secretly been terrorizing
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these black family because in addition to the external racism
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they're getting from the neighbors,
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they're also having these like visions.
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Every member of the family that's making them
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especially paranoid.
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And it's not clear for a lot of the show
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what is real racism and what is their paranoid delusions
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which we later discover are being caused by this ghost.
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And I found that ambiguity to be unsatisfying
00:16:21
especially because surreal things would happen
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and it wasn't clear to me like is this a ghost thing
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or not ghost thing until later in the show.
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Like for example, there's at one point this black woman
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and this racist white neighborhood runs out of her house
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waving a gun around in the air.
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And there are no consequences.
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Now later we realized we learned that the cop on the beat
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who was apparently the only cop.
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In the neighborhood who comes up when the gun incident happens
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is actually being paid,
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is in good hoots with the real estate folks
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to basically protect, like keep the black people in their homes
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like allow the black people to stay here
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so that they can keep hoodwinking them into these
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these least agreements.
00:17:10
So pride mortgages, yes.
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But that just seemed kind of unrealistic
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a single cop could accomplish that.
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Like you just seem like logistically it didn't make sense.
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- He just shows up when there might be trouble.
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And it's not like there's not that many black people moving in.
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And the whole thing they say is like it's a domino effect
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once they start coming in, the white people just start leaving.
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He's just there to make sure that they don't kill
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the first black family that moves in.
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- But I guess the problem is he can't be there 24/7.
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There's plenty of times they could have killed them.
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I just feel like--
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- But they didn't really want to.
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They didn't really want to.
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Like I think people came in and serious expecting it
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to be like get out where it's like immediate
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like full on murderous racism.
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What you see in Lovecraft Country,
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and I think Watchmen too,
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and these other types of shows where it's a meat or antibullabellum,
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like all of it is immediate murderous racism.
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But you come in, they are just like regular
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suburban white folk,
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and they kind of don't know what to do.
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And they're not ready to kill them.
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They're just like mad and want to drive them away
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without actually getting in trouble themselves.
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And that's why they actually listen to him
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when he comes over and says leave him alone or whatever.
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Like it's not as intense a situation, I think,
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as you're merely think.
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- I guess my problem is a lot of the stuff
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that did happen under his watch
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would have been enough, I think,
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to drive a lot of black families out.
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So I feel like he wasn't doing that great a job
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'cause enough stuff still happened.
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I think a lot of families would have left.
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Did the ghosts kill the dog?
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Did the question you guys got, or was it?
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- I thought the white people killed the dog.
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Although it happened in the basement,
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so it's one of these intentionally confusing.
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- I think it might have been the ghost.
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I think it might have been the ghost.
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- 'Cause the basement is the ghost to me,
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but the white people were talking about poison the dog
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got dead.
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- I thought maybe it was a misdirection by the riot of the people.
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- Maybe it was Allison Peele, I forget.
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It was 10 episodes ago.
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They did say the window was too small for a human
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an adult to get in through,
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so then I thought maybe it was a misdirection to hint at the ghosts.
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- You could just chuck a poison dog tree down there.
00:19:29
- That's true.
00:19:30
- Here's the thing, here's the thing.
00:19:34
Here's my problem.
00:19:36
I accept a ghost story.
00:19:38
I accept a beloved kind of a plot where you don't know
00:19:42
what's going on, you know the house is haunted
00:19:44
and then over the course of the novel
00:19:46
or the somewhat regrettable movie,
00:19:49
you discover that, oh, okay, she had a horrible trauma
00:19:54
she experienced, her child was killed,
00:19:58
and this is the baby goat.
00:20:00
It ends up all joining up and being connected
00:20:03
and making sense as a narrative.
00:20:05
And it's like a manifestation of trauma.
00:20:07
It's a little allegorical and non-literal,
00:20:09
but even in a literal film form, it hangs together,
00:20:13
it makes sense.
00:20:14
The weird part of that movie was my girl,
00:20:16
Tannie Newton, coming out full nine months pregnant
00:20:19
with that weird mercanton,
00:20:20
but that's a different conversation.
00:20:23
And this, there were all of these potential causes
00:20:27
for what was going on.
00:20:29
And to me, the ghost story, if it was just a ghost story,
00:20:32
then fine, but it was a ghost story.
00:20:34
It was a story of racism and racists
00:20:36
who were acting in a way that made them seem like they were possessed.
00:20:39
Like it wasn't just normal racism,
00:20:41
it was like a psychotic obsession,
00:20:44
but it wasn't clear whether this was also part of the ghost stuff.
00:20:47
- It is, it is.
00:20:48
- And then there was also the fact that this man
00:20:51
before ever moving to California,
00:20:54
had a mental breakdown as a consequence of fighting in the war.
00:20:58
And the ghost seems to be praying on that,
00:21:04
his own sense of mental instability
00:21:07
seems to be part and parcel of this trend of his,
00:21:10
with the motif of him not being able to eat sweet foods,
00:21:13
coming up in the context of the ghost,
00:21:15
even though it was something that started
00:21:16
as a consequence of his wartime trauma.
00:21:20
So if you're gonna have all of these things going on at once,
00:21:24
even for one that has to be purposeful,
00:21:27
why do we need all of these motivations
00:21:31
for all of the dissonance that's happening?
00:21:33
Like one would have it sufficed,
00:21:35
but if you're gonna have all of them,
00:21:36
I need to pay off.
00:21:39
I need to have a reason why.
00:21:41
Why introduce that this man has wart trauma?
00:21:46
Okay, except for that, it makes him sympathetic
00:21:50
to what is wife's going through.
00:21:52
Okay, all right.
00:21:53
But then ultimately he's not believing his wife
00:21:57
that she's seeing visions of the ghost
00:21:58
when he perfectly knows well
00:21:59
that he's also seeing visions
00:22:01
of this weird Vodville character,
00:22:03
racist Vodville character.
00:22:04
And they never communicate about any of the things
00:22:07
they're all seeing except the little girl,
00:22:09
and then nobody believes little girl,
00:22:10
even though they're all apparently seeing visions
00:22:13
at the same time,
00:22:14
then they introduce the teenage daughter's visions
00:22:17
a little later in the show in a way that,
00:22:20
I don't know, like her character just kind of underdeveloped
00:22:25
as a whole.
00:22:27
Yeah, her, she was a little bit under,
00:22:29
her plot was a little bit underdeveloped,
00:22:31
but even though I like some, I like the ending visual,
00:22:34
the visual where she's like covers herself
00:22:36
and white paint in front of the bonfire,
00:22:39
I thought that was cool.
00:22:40
But she didn't really have like that much going on
00:22:44
and I kept just like thinking back to her character
00:22:47
and like what was she was in the door to the field.
00:22:51
Other sounds like, yeah, like you,
00:22:53
like it almost just felt like an extension
00:22:55
like that movie happened, or two.
00:22:57
Also like what,
00:22:59
everything, everything felt so like textbook basic,
00:23:03
like, oh, a black girl and she goes to all white school
00:23:06
and she wants to be white.
00:23:07
Like, can the whole bluest eye Easter egg,
00:23:11
I thought was a little too on the nose,
00:23:13
like I felt like they tried to do a little black art Easter egg
00:23:17
where she looks into the mirror and her eyes blue.
00:23:20
I'm like, okay, 20 Morrison, bluest eye, like I get it,
00:23:23
but it, you're not really going anywhere with it really.
00:23:27
It's corny, like also her mom is like the most beautiful
00:23:29
moment I've ever seen.
00:23:31
Chocolate, right around this town.
00:23:34
And we just have this really flat narrative.
00:23:36
There was ever any conversation,
00:23:38
hey, mom, I'm feeling insecure at school
00:23:39
and we could have had it instead of,
00:23:41
instead of spending an entire episode
00:23:42
on that white lady's backstory
00:23:44
when she just gets killed like a dog in the field anyway.
00:23:47
Develop a relationship between this mother
00:23:49
and this daughter and the sense of self esteem
00:23:51
and a white space.
00:23:53
You know, imagine if maybe the mom had taken the daughter
00:23:55
to go to the other part of Compton
00:23:57
where the black people lived.
00:23:58
And that whole part of the story, it's like,
00:24:01
it begs the question, why are you living in that neighborhood?
00:24:06
Like why would it be a great scene?
00:24:09
So what you described would have been a great scene.
00:24:11
If she brought her daughter over to the black side
00:24:13
to help her get over feeling bad around the white school,
00:24:17
that would have been a great scene.
00:24:18
I wouldn't love to see that.
00:24:19
It does not horror scene.
00:24:20
That's just a regular drama scene.
00:24:23
That's not like, you don't bring the daughter to solve the problem.
00:24:26
But he has to, but,
00:24:28
but lucky going over there was a regular drama scene anyway
00:24:31
when she goes over and hangs out with the people.
00:24:33
So it would have also created an opportunity
00:24:37
for some narrative consistency because the daughter could
00:24:39
have asked some questions that I as a viewer was watching.
00:24:41
For example, why is it so important for you to live
00:24:45
in this all white neighborhood?
00:24:47
Something the daughter could have asked
00:24:48
and then the mother could have answered it in a way
00:24:50
that, you know, I wouldn't agree with, but what makes sense?
00:24:53
Like, you know, your father has been working so hard
00:24:56
to feel a capable long.
00:24:57
He has his chip in his shoulder.
00:24:59
Like, I just really want to give you the best.
00:25:01
These white people can't scare us.
00:25:02
Somebody has to be a pioneer.
00:25:03
We have to put our foot down.
00:25:05
Yeah, you know, the kinds of rationalizations people make,
00:25:08
but at least then, that one just be this big thing hanging
00:25:10
in the air like everything's chill over here in great.
00:25:15
And for some reason, we've gone to this predatory mortgage
00:25:17
with people who are literally trying to kill us next door
00:25:19
after I've just been raped in my child kill by white people.
00:25:23
I think that question would be fair
00:25:24
if the show took place over a long time, but it's only,
00:25:27
but it's like by like, they for they want to leave,
00:25:30
but they like, like can't, they can't get out of the loan
00:25:34
and then she ends up in the hospital to show only,
00:25:36
it feels like a long time, but showing takes place
00:25:38
is only like a week and a half.
00:25:40
So I think it's, so I think is realistic
00:25:43
that no matter what racism you experience
00:25:46
when you get to your new brand new house,
00:25:48
you're going to stay for more than a week.
00:25:50
Probably and they do try to leave in the middle,
00:25:53
but then she in me, but then she gets institutionalized
00:25:58
so then they're kind of stuck.
00:26:00
One thing, the dog dies, my kids aren't going to be in that house anymore.
00:26:03
That's all I have to say.
00:26:05
How are we going to have a horror movie, Bri?
00:26:07
How are we going to have a horror movie, Bri?
00:26:09
The first, the first scary thing we gone.
00:26:13
They're poisoning small creatures up in my house
00:26:15
and I have my little toddler baby right around here
00:26:17
talking about cat in the bag.
00:26:21
I think the mistake they made is that they should not have worked
00:26:24
in the down south gym crow stuff at all.
00:26:26
Like I think, I think what happens is once you have her gang raped
00:26:31
while watching her kid get, uh, bloodshed in the bag,
00:26:37
then it ruins your rest of the story because like Bri said,
00:26:42
why do you want to move into this neighborhood so bad,
00:26:46
disting these moron packing, what happened to the white people?
00:26:51
Like that, that did that like, yeah, yeah, you just up and, and move like,
00:26:58
and I felt like what this movie was really,
00:27:00
what this show was really about was like assimilation anxiety.
00:27:04
And I think that's what this kind of class of black people
00:27:08
who make this kind of art that they're big life problems,
00:27:12
assimilation anxiety, but that's not a bad thing to write a show about.
00:27:16
That's fine, but I feel like they feel kind of guilty.
00:27:18
Like this is not a good enough thing to do a show about.
00:27:22
So we have to tie it into something deeper.
00:27:24
So great migration.
00:27:26
Like one thing I like about the Jordan P.L. thing with get out was,
00:27:30
I think he was just kind of on his, hey, this is kind of what I worry about.
00:27:34
Assimilation anxiety.
00:27:35
I'm not going to try to tie it into, you know, a lot deeper stuff than than that,
00:27:41
you know, but I felt like they really just want to talk about
00:27:45
having to live around white people and deal with microaggressions
00:27:49
and deal with occasional explosions of violence and whatever,
00:27:52
but they felt like, oh, that's not heavy enough, you know,
00:27:56
let's tie it into extreme Jim Crow violence.
00:28:01
And then it just creates this kind of mismatch that to me, it doesn't work.
00:28:06
It ends up undermining the current part because you're like,
00:28:10
why are you moving into this area and dealing with this white picket fence stuff?
00:28:15
Because he's another problem is the black part of town isn't really the hood yet.
00:28:20
You know, it hasn't really hit a point.
00:28:22
Yeah, it's nice.
00:28:23
So it's like, it's not like, you just hate black people like,
00:28:26
why don't you move here?
00:28:27
OK.
00:28:28
It's not 80's confidence.
00:28:30
Somebody's pre-white for it.
00:28:32
But somebody did people did do this in real life.
00:28:34
So that's the thing.
00:28:35
Like, people did do this.
00:28:37
They were the first family to move into, to skip over the nice black neighborhood
00:28:41
and move into the all white comptence.
00:28:44
So I, but what is the same ones who dealt with like that type of gang rape Jim Crow?
00:28:49
No, it's Cory Booker family.
00:28:51
You know, Cory Booker always tells that story because, you know,
00:28:53
it's about how like his parents, Jewish friend got them the least and then they moved in
00:28:58
and his parents were like, why is passing but pale?
00:29:01
And like, I feel like that, that kind of family who was always upwardly mobile,
00:29:08
lights get like that's, that's who ends up in those spaces.
00:29:11
That's who's the first to move.
00:29:12
Or oftentimes people who, no one even knew was black until it was, it was too late.
00:29:18
It's not this family who apparently was, were some kind of rural, who knows what they did.
00:29:23
But old grow was standing outside in a white cotton, like slip dress in apron,
00:29:32
one second south in North Carolina.
00:29:35
And the next second were like corporate executives walking into the advertising firm
00:29:40
in, in the big city of LA.
00:29:42
They seem like completely different people between those two settings.
00:29:46
It was just, it was disjointed.
00:29:48
It didn't make any sense.
00:29:49
And to your point T, it starts to feel like they are like racism is bad enough.
00:29:53
Like that kind of rape and violence, like that happened.
00:29:58
And I don't want to be sitting here thinking, oh, was it an evil spirit that didn't know?
00:30:01
Is a white people who do that stuff.
00:30:03
And all of a sudden about the predatory landing and like actually playing out how that happens,
00:30:07
I thought that was fascinating.
00:30:09
And as, even though it's kind of basic, like, oh, look, I read the red lighting book and
00:30:13
I'm going to write this into my script, I have never seen it spelled out quite that clearly
00:30:17
and explicitly in a, near fiction narrative before.
00:30:21
And it's fascinating and it's on right.
00:30:23
Yeah, it's, there could be a whole show on that.
00:30:25
I know that wouldn't be a horror show, Leslie.
00:30:26
But there, I actually liked that aspect of it.
00:30:30
It's the ghost stuff that I started to feel like was overkill because it's like there's
00:30:35
racial hatred is real. And when you start introducing this fantasy element to it, it makes it seem
00:30:40
like it had to be a supernatural priest from 100 years ago to make white people act like
00:30:46
this when white people just were acting like that.
00:30:49
I, well, I think the thing is the show is not about race or racism.
00:30:53
It's just nice.
00:30:54
It's about horror.
00:30:55
Like he didn't make this show because when the shinnah puts so much race and racism
00:30:59
in it, because that feels exploitative.
00:31:00
But it is interviews and claims it is.
00:31:02
That's the problem.
00:31:03
But I, when he might claim it is, but when you watch this show, like he's not obsessing
00:31:07
about getting the racial facts right, he's obsessing about getting the shot, the shot,
00:31:12
the shot is right.
00:31:13
And I'm sorry, you're just like, there's so much focus on the racial facts.
00:31:17
But I, you're reading a sociology book from like freshman year.
00:31:20
Yeah, yeah, it's a little more TV.
00:31:22
I mean, I don't think it, I think actually any of the racial stuff is much more well done
00:31:27
than anything in watchman, anything.
00:31:30
Like it felt like almost like what if madman, a show of that quality where, and like the
00:31:35
red line scene, that's a perfect example that could have been seen in a high quality prestige
00:31:39
drama about race with no violence or anything in it.
00:31:43
I think it, there is a, the show should be complemented for doing, be able to do that stuff
00:31:49
extremely well when the shows built around it can't do it well.
00:31:53
But ultimately, I think this show is like, you don't do that episode five if you're just
00:31:58
trying to tell, you know, a fairy, a fairy tale story about race.
00:32:03
Like you do that when you want to do like a poppy gross, you know, rob zombie type fucked
00:32:11
up horror thing.
00:32:12
Episode five, you're talking about when the rape happens.
00:32:14
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:15
But the thing is there, there are tons of racial movies with scenes just like that rosewood.
00:32:20
But I just, I just think the way, but I think the way that this show is shot and the way,
00:32:25
and the, and the people who are directing like Ty West who is like very big into, you know,
00:32:31
is a, is a horror, horror, horror director's horror director.
00:32:35
I just think that the way it was marketed as being similar to like these racial prestige shows
00:32:42
was disservice because I think it's much closer to something like channel zero or American horror
00:32:47
story.
00:32:48
Like American horror story, it deals with social issues, but I don't think you anyone would
00:32:53
say that any of those, those seasons are actually about like having anything particularly strong
00:32:59
to say about them.
00:33:00
I think it's mostly about, you know, tillation, shock, horror.
00:33:04
And I think this, that's what this show really is about, even though it does do some racial
00:33:10
stuff, I think it does a lot of the racial like fact dropping much better than these other
00:33:14
shows.
00:33:15
But when I'm watching this, but on the whole like, I just, it just doesn't feel all that
00:33:20
like racism is an element of the horror, but the show doesn't really have anything to say
00:33:26
about race or racism is just like people deal with racism.
00:33:30
This is how a racist ghosts would be like it just seemed to be more about exploring these
00:33:36
different modes of horror than it was saying absolutely anything at all about racism.
00:33:44
I think American horror story is a good example because I think it's true that that show does
00:33:51
not get into any particulars about the substance of what's going on.
00:33:55
I mean, sometimes it's just like witches, so there's not a lot of particulars to get into.
00:33:58
It's, it's just about a covenant or whatever.
00:34:03
But this show doesn't just treat the racist 1950s as a architecture for the first time
00:34:14
for a horror show, right?
00:34:16
They could have set a show in the 50s.
00:34:19
They could have set a show in the 1850s.
00:34:21
They could have set a show in all kinds of racist times in American history and not made
00:34:25
it about racism.
00:34:26
There's Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter, which I didn't see, but I can guess, but it probably,
00:34:32
you know, talked about Abraham Lincoln and slavery, but didn't make it, you know, didn't
00:34:36
have people raping slaves and bludgeoning babies in a paper bag in a pillowcase in a
00:34:44
close-up.
00:34:45
And at a certain point, you are using racial horror to highlight the genre horror and not
00:34:54
everyone is going to love that because racial horror is real and it's like really crappy.
00:35:01
And so if you're going to do that, I think, I think you're allowed.
00:35:04
I'm not approved.
00:35:05
I'm not saying like, some things just shouldn't make light of or, you know, you shouldn't
00:35:09
take too lightly.
00:35:11
But I think you have to have a payoff.
00:35:13
You have to see me saying something.
00:35:15
For whatever we just want to say about, get out.
00:35:17
I felt like it was saying something.
00:35:20
It was saying something about white liberal guilt in the hypocrisy of white liberals.
00:35:25
It was saying something about final scene where everyone gasped when the cop car comes up
00:35:30
and we have this collective experience of realizing that black people have a different
00:35:34
relationship to law enforcement and the white people in the theater.
00:35:37
The movie has a point.
00:35:41
I felt differently about us.
00:35:42
I felt like us didn't know what it was saying at all.
00:35:45
It was a fine movie.
00:35:46
There are aspects of it I enjoy, but it just didn't know what it was doing.
00:35:50
There were all these things I felt like metaphors, but I didn't know what it was a metaphor
00:35:54
for what?
00:35:55
I don't know.
00:35:56
And that's how I feel about it.
00:35:57
It was beautiful.
00:35:59
The gruesome horrible shots were beautiful.
00:36:02
It was very well produced.
00:36:04
It looked expensive.
00:36:05
The people looked amazing.
00:36:07
And I wanted to invest.
00:36:09
There were aspects of it that I found to be interesting.
00:36:13
For sure.
00:36:14
But at the end of the day, it's even hard to describe exactly why I didn't like it because
00:36:19
there just wasn't a payoff of all of the horror.
00:36:24
And that's when it becomes torture porn instead of just a horror movie to me.
00:36:29
Yeah, I just didn't like the payoff for me is the horror.
00:36:33
I don't know what.
00:36:35
Most of the things people are not going on the show are things that have a firm tradition
00:36:41
and references block for block shot for shot stuff that you can see in other horror movies
00:36:48
in a similar tone and no payoff.
00:36:54
At the end of the Hills AvA is the hills went, usually.
00:37:00
There's no payoff.
00:37:01
There's no victory.
00:37:02
There's no you necessarily get your revenge.
00:37:05
And so I understand.
00:37:07
And but this is not stuff that's for everybody.
00:37:09
This is not stuff that's for even most horror fans.
00:37:12
Like most horror fans aren't going to like this stuff.
00:37:15
But this show has been elevated to like the front page of Amazon is next to the next, you
00:37:21
know, Michael P. Jordan movie is next to fabulous Miss maislin.
00:37:25
I think but it's a very specific gritty grimy type of horror thing and it is very nasty.
00:37:33
And I would not recommend this to most people.
00:37:37
I will only recommend this to people really invested into some like shocking gruesome horror.
00:37:44
I would not recommend this to just average person looking for a good new TV show.
00:37:49
Like that's not what this is.
00:37:50
But I think part of the problem that happens is that the Hills have eyes, not that stuff,
00:37:56
they're not kind of trafficking in a real serious like, you know, like if you got to do
00:38:03
like Jim Crow and and violence and lynching and all this stuff, it would be kind of like
00:38:09
if you're doing the Hills have eyes, but with the Armenian genocide or something, you know,
00:38:13
there's movies like there's movies, there's movies compared to Joe Joe rabbit.
00:38:17
Let's talk about like Joe Joe rabbit, which when I heard it was about, I was like, I'm
00:38:20
going to pull this off or even the one with Brad Pitt and glorious bastards.
00:38:27
Both of those movies could have gone really off the rails.
00:38:32
And some people didn't like in glorious bastards because they felt like it was what like
00:38:37
appropriating they wanted it they wanted it to be like a Jewish hero as opposed to is Brad
00:38:43
Pitt's character like supposed to be a Gentile.
00:38:45
I remember there would be some discourse about whether he was like appropriating a moment
00:38:49
of potential like Jewish self determination and like glory and like killing the Nazis,
00:38:53
but regardless, Joe Joe rabbit never in the Inglorious bastards also never kind of plays.
00:39:04
I want to be careful with this because I don't think that they them thus them them them.
00:39:11
It's doing this intentionally, but it would be as though in the Inglorious bastards or
00:39:17
and Joe Joe rabbit, they introduce a power, a force that is persecuting and genociding Jews
00:39:25
other than Hitler and Nazis.
00:39:28
Right.
00:39:29
If we found out that Hitler wasn't just anti-Semitic piece of crap, you mean like the entire MCU?
00:39:37
Yes, that's a whack.
00:39:39
Yeah, that's it.
00:39:40
I mean, but yeah, that's, but that's a, I mean, that, but that's not so.
00:39:43
Everybody is not such an unusual thing to have like a Nazi be like a zombie Nazi or vampire
00:39:49
Nazi.
00:39:50
But in the Marvel movies, you don't, you're not getting up close as of what's going down
00:39:54
in Auschwitz, right?
00:39:56
You're not getting people being just gruesomely with their ribs poking out of their ribca- like
00:40:02
you are getting the racial, you're getting explicit racial terror in in them.
00:40:08
But sorry.
00:40:09
Right.
00:40:13
And at the same time, you're getting the antagonist, the ultimate antagonist is literally
00:40:21
a long dead Scandinavian priest.
00:40:29
I mean, it literally offloads even the Americans of it.
00:40:33
It's just like random new immigrant with an accent who is apparently responsible because
00:40:38
of a deal with the devil for the racial torture, this family that we've just been subjecting
00:40:42
ourselves to for 10 hours.
00:40:44
And that's what starts to feel like it cheapens the experience of the horror.
00:40:52
Like you can zoom, you can zoom out on the racial terror and play fast and lose with the
00:40:56
fact of history or you can zoom in and like really respect that this was a real life happening
00:41:03
and these are historical events.
00:41:04
And even in this show is apparently based on a real story, right?
00:41:08
This is a real family, at least that's what the title card at the beginning said.
00:41:11
I don't know if that was part of the conceit.
00:41:13
Yeah, there was like a, I don't know.
00:41:15
It's talked about the great migration to title card, but I don't know if it mentioned the
00:41:20
specific family.
00:41:21
It said the name of a family was the first black family to move into this neighborhood.
00:41:26
I don't know if that was fake.
00:41:28
They might have just looked up the records.
00:41:30
I mean, there's no reason.
00:41:31
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:32
It was just a name.
00:41:33
Yeah.
00:41:34
I mean, if that's a real name of a real family, obviously they can do what they want, but
00:41:37
the implication it, I mean, something happened to that family, that family had a real experience
00:41:42
and it wasn't because of a Swedish devil.
00:41:44
I just don't, I just don't think that, I don't think the show really says that the Swedish
00:41:50
devil is responsible for all the race and because first of all, the racism, he was like,
00:41:55
like the racism started with them.
00:41:57
Like if anything, like this, I'm actually surprised with the show for explicitly like
00:42:02
condemning the racism explicit in Christianity and in the Bible, which like you almost never
00:42:09
see in anything, but like even before he's, you think he's possessed, like he's quoting scripture
00:42:15
from the Bible about how black people are like foreigners can be treated as slaves and such
00:42:20
and such, but I don't think the show really wants you to think that those people aren't
00:42:25
racist.
00:42:26
And Allison's pills character, she's not haunted or anything.
00:42:28
She's just like a pure like, viral race is in most of the people in the neighborhood.
00:42:33
I think maybe until the very end, we're not supposed to think of them as being under any
00:42:39
sort of influence similar to an episode nine with the scanning, they've been felt.
00:42:45
We're not supposed to think their racism is influenced by the ghosts until the absolute
00:42:49
very end when they all like, you know, end up, you know, burnt torching themselves in
00:42:55
this, you know, religious racist fervor, but I can see that reading of it, but I really don't
00:43:02
think the show's intention is to it, but I can see why that confusion is happening because
00:43:06
it, he says it himself, he has three problems for the protagonist, the internal struggle
00:43:12
with the ghosts, the external struggle with the racist neighbors, which is not super natural.
00:43:18
And then they have, you know, the struggle with their past and the things that they've already
00:43:23
dealt with in their own, you know, psychological issues that the ghosts take advantage of that
00:43:31
the racist, you know, you know, exacerbate themselves, like all of them aren't necessarily
00:43:38
connected in every way until the end.
00:43:41
I can see why you would think, like you would feel that way that was kind of offloading the
00:43:47
racism onto the demon, but actually, and I think a lot of stuff does that, but I actually
00:43:51
don't, I think this show was nuanced enough that made it very clear, like these people were
00:43:56
racist and also the ghost is racist, but he was a racist of the human too.
00:44:00
I mean, it doesn't seem like the ghost even needs to be there or do it like what's the
00:44:06
point?
00:44:07
Like, so there's a movie like, like Black Swan, for instance, and I would say, okay, Black
00:44:13
Swan, and again, it's been like 15 years since I saw that movie, so great assault, but
00:44:17
I seem to recall it being extremely difficult to watch in all the great way in a really good
00:44:23
way, because it was genuinely subtle.
00:44:28
The horror of her internal breakdown externalized in these ways where we didn't know as if you
00:44:35
were what was real or what wasn't because we were seeing the distortions through her eyes.
00:44:39
The scenes of her meticulously, like picking out her cuticles until they start to bleed,
00:44:44
you want to turn away from the screen, not because it's a baby literally being whacked against
00:44:49
the floor and a frickin pillowcase, but because it was, there was a sense of restraint, and
00:44:57
I found it to be, like, I remember watching that movie that threw my fingers and like nothing
00:45:01
dramatic even happens.
00:45:05
I guess the thing is, like, that does a fair point, but that's a completely different type
00:45:08
of movie is like, there, but there's a lot of movies where babies are going to whacked
00:45:13
in bags against force and something like that.
00:45:16
That scene did not shock me at all because I've seen somebody--
00:45:19
It's not about being shocked.
00:45:20
It's not about being shocked.
00:45:21
I'm not like prudent.
00:45:22
I mean, I mean, I did not watch that through my fingers because it was almost cartoonish.
00:45:26
Yeah, it was.
00:45:27
It was, I think, I think, like, kind of delivery a lot of this extreme horror can be a little
00:45:31
bit cartoonish, but I think, like, it just wasn't trying to be subtle as well as what
00:45:37
I'm kind of saying, and people are going to prefer that.
00:45:40
I would imagine most people would prefer black swan to something, you know, more violent
00:45:46
or more extreme or sloky or too, and I think the show at times can be a little bit sloky
00:45:51
because, like, that that back scene is not really, like, convincing.
00:45:54
I don't mind sloky, and it's either.
00:45:56
I enjoyed many seasons of American horror story.
00:45:59
I don't mind.
00:46:00
My point is that, okay, I once ate a musical theater student who explained who said a musical
00:46:10
should make a good and a good musical when they break into song, it does something that
00:46:17
but more and better.
00:46:19
It tells a better story or conveys a better emotion than you could have done with written
00:46:24
dialogue.
00:46:25
And if it doesn't elevate a scene, if you're just having to explain what happened anyway,
00:46:30
then it's a bad musical and that was bad writing.
00:46:33
And I think that principle kind of applies here where all I want is for the parts that
00:46:38
were introduced to be be be additive.
00:46:42
I'm not mad at the idea of schlockiness, I'm not mad at the idea of gruesomeness, I'm not
00:46:46
mad at the dea of horror.
00:46:48
But at some point, in my opinion, the various elements that were introduced are competing
00:46:53
with each other for airtime.
00:46:55
And any one of those elements or any two of those elements were interesting and good.
00:47:00
And I, the criticism isn't that I didn't like the elements that no one of the elements
00:47:05
was as free to thrive and be expressed fully as it might have been.
00:47:11
If half of my brain power weren't devoted to trying to figure out what the hell was going
00:47:15
on and any given moment, what was motivating what and why the events that were happening
00:47:24
on the screen, that a lot of time was being devoted to at certain points, were actually
00:47:28
going to matter in the long run.
00:47:30
I think it was a confusion too that was bothering me where it's trying to explore real life
00:47:35
racial trauma and real life history, redlining Jim Crow, but also trying to do schlocky and
00:47:43
over the top stuff.
00:47:45
And I don't think the two should have been mixed like either do full allegory or but we
00:47:51
need to explore intergenerational trauma and things that people really feel very triggered
00:47:59
by, but then also try to make a grindhouse thing out of it.
00:48:03
I think it's, it's different than the hills have eyes because the hills have eyes is something
00:48:08
totally fictional.
00:48:10
You're suddenly making people relive things that, you know, they're worried that their ancestors
00:48:16
went through or whatever.
00:48:18
They live in, they're parents, they live in terror of and that's kind of problem when you
00:48:24
kind of introduce ghosts into it and grind house and everything.
00:48:28
You're kind of almost cheapening it.
00:48:31
It's weird because you kind of, it seems like the show wants to be homework TV, wants to
00:48:36
be profound, it wants to be a history lesson, but it also wants to be exploitation, mando,
00:48:45
grind house entertainment.
00:48:47
And I think it's that blending of the two that has a lot of people kind of with a bad
00:48:53
temptation of mouth about this stuff.
00:48:57
My main thing is like if you want a entertainment, this is not the show for you and you should
00:49:02
watch it and anything you see in it, I would say that's a bonus, but the real, like I just
00:49:07
think the core of the show and the most, the thing they're most interesting, interesting
00:49:12
and this had like several different, you know, horror directors who aren't known for
00:49:16
their films about racial justice and some more about like vampire women and stuff like
00:49:23
that.
00:49:24
So I think that like that's that element is the horror element is just so strong and that's
00:49:29
what really won me over to it.
00:49:30
Now, I do agree with you 100% Briana said this like it has three lanes of horror that could
00:49:37
go in and I like the ghost one absolutely could have been left out actually even though
00:49:41
I like the lot of it, but I think the show may have been stronger if they had left it
00:49:45
out or if it was short, ever short of show, like artists could have been three different
00:49:50
shows, right? Could have been about multiple different families going through different
00:49:54
kinds of things or if it was only the ghost.
00:49:56
I imagine a show, part of the thing about this pernicious about racism is that sometimes
00:50:01
it's like you don't know when it's racism or when it shows, oh, that person was rude or
00:50:05
I that person, Jenny, you wanted to help me in the grocery store and wasn't following
00:50:09
me.
00:50:10
You know, there's, there's this kind of sense where as a black person, you're always
00:50:12
forced to doubt yourself because you don't want to make a wrong accusation, but you know,
00:50:17
some part of what's happening to you, some percentage of it really is racism, right?
00:50:22
And so I imagine a world like imagine a show where they move into this neighborhood, they're
00:50:26
very nervous about it for obvious reasons.
00:50:29
There are tensions and glances exchanged with neighbors and you don't really know how
00:50:34
to interpret them, but then all of this stuff starts happening in their internal world
00:50:40
and it's creating the more and more and more paranoid and acted ways that genuinely
00:50:45
actually piss off the neighbors for good reasons and not racist reasons.
00:50:49
And there's all these tensions like the ghosts could genuinely be stirring crap in the neighborhood
00:50:54
like as opposed to having kind of like being disconnected from like external racism that
00:51:00
just exists in the world.
00:51:02
You know, because most racism isn't as overt even in the 1950s as what went down in that
00:51:06
neighborhood with like just the full on insanity that happened day one.
00:51:11
Yeah.
00:51:12
It's lower bill, I think, where, okay, either the ghost is pulling all of the strings or
00:51:17
the ghost is just affecting them so much in the house that is making them unable to behave,
00:51:23
you know, they're the racism monitors or like mis-firing and causing tensions with the neighbors.
00:51:29
There's ways that this could go that wouldn't feel like those ideas were in competition.
00:51:34
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
00:51:35
That's an interesting take, but I said in this brief is that if they had made that one,
00:51:41
it absolutely would have had to end with the black family being murdered by the right people.
00:51:45
100%.
00:51:46
That would have had to be the ending to that.
00:51:51
But yeah, I felt there was a lot of things in the show though that I did feel were genuine
00:51:56
kind of slay king, slay queen moments.
00:52:00
Like when he, when that cracker talks jive to him and he just walks up and busts him
00:52:07
upside the head with the gun, I like that.
00:52:10
I was, I felt that that was real to me him going in the bathroom and being like, because
00:52:16
he's dealing with his white balls that felt real to me.
00:52:19
Her rocking across the street and slapping Allison Pill finally someone has done that that
00:52:25
felt all real to me when he just shoots the cop and just drives off and that faces no
00:52:32
consequences for it.
00:52:33
That felt real to you.
00:52:35
Yeah, it did feel real, but it felt good.
00:52:37
It felt good.
00:52:38
So there were, there were some fun, there were some fun moments, even though it was a really
00:52:43
dark show.
00:52:44
I think there was some fun moments and it does technically have kind of a happy ending.
00:52:47
They did beat the ghost and inadvertently actually saved all their white neighbors too
00:52:52
for being consumed in the flames of their racial fury.
00:52:56
What did you guys make of the kind of late in show dead baby in a box reveal?
00:53:02
What I thought was that, you know, that was an editing thing.
00:53:05
I think we were supposed to think it was supposed to be a storyline that we weren't sure
00:53:11
if what happened to Lucky actually happened.
00:53:14
We weren't supposed to be sure about that.
00:53:16
We were supposed to question the darkness question it towards the end.
00:53:21
The darsal like you killed our little brother.
00:53:23
I think that was something that was supposed to be set up earlier on and somewhere it got lost
00:53:28
in the end.
00:53:29
You did not land for me.
00:53:30
Yeah, I think we made for shooting kill that baby with a fucking timeout.
00:53:32
Yeah, I think they were trying, I think just, I mean, because even that scene like that,
00:53:35
the scene in episode five, that scene felt like that should have been the first scene in
00:53:38
the show, but they didn't want to open the show with black woman being raped by some mutant
00:53:45
racist.
00:53:46
I think that, I think that's why, and I think that changed.
00:53:48
And I think after that we were maybe supposed to see scenes where we thought Lucky's sanity
00:53:53
or her story because she was the only one there.
00:53:57
Yeah.
00:53:58
Yeah.
00:53:59
But that, that, that, then the surreal nature of that, of what happened her, that was a real
00:54:06
sticking point to me.
00:54:07
I got to say because to this, to this day, I mean, the way they filmed it, we're wearing all
00:54:12
white, the house, the middle of nowhere, the people came and then left and there was no
00:54:16
sense of community.
00:54:17
There was no sense of what town they lived in.
00:54:20
It felt like a dream.
00:54:23
But I would have liked to have spent more time with, do they have parents?
00:54:29
We got to meet the white lady's parents.
00:54:31
Do they have parents?
00:54:34
Do they have any sense of community?
00:54:35
Did they get support from the community when their baby was blushing to death?
00:54:38
Was there, are there police involved?
00:54:40
And what happened to the people who did all of that?
00:54:42
It can be really just fully go and bang someone's baby to death and there's just nothing,
00:54:47
no follow-up.
00:54:48
I mean, there was just, I don't know.
00:54:51
I think those are fair questions, but again, I think it's just a genre thing.
00:54:56
It's like, yes, they are, like, are they literally ghosts?
00:54:59
No, but as far as the film goes, yes, they are those, like, the mutants in the hills,
00:55:05
they just come out and attack you.
00:55:08
They're the strangers if you've seen that movie.
00:55:11
Why do they do this?
00:55:12
Because you're home.
00:55:13
They're just the things that come out of it.
00:55:14
That's the part that makes it seem cheapened a little bit, right?
00:55:17
Because part of the story of why those time of events are horrible is, okay.
00:55:21
You go to the cops and the cops don't do anything because black people don't get justice.
00:55:26
Or, you know, and the racism isn't quite so senseless.
00:55:30
It's, I mean, rape, you don't have to like explain, you know, rape.
00:55:35
In real life, there would be something much more twisted.
00:55:37
Like, I thought that white woman was going to have, was going to have always wanted a baby,
00:55:41
couldn't have her own kids and just like wanted to steal a black baby.
00:55:44
I thought she was going to take the baby.
00:55:46
And then she was not going to have fewer legal resources to get the baby back.
00:55:49
And there's something at least sinister about that.
00:55:51
And that feels really true to life given the obvious history of selling black children.
00:55:58
But either make her like write her in as a sociopath who just travels with rapists and go
00:56:05
door to door doing that.
00:56:06
I mean, I don't know, man.
00:56:08
I mean, they're just villains from another movie.
00:56:11
That's really what it is.
00:56:12
And you're, that's either going to satisfy you or not.
00:56:15
But I think that's really what it is. They are villains from another movie who showed up in this one.
00:56:20
Yeah, that's what it felt like.
00:56:21
That's what it felt like.
00:56:22
I will also say that that little baby was beautifully.
00:56:24
Yeah.
00:56:25
And was one of the most charming little on screen talents at the end.
00:56:28
It just made it worse.
00:56:29
It was such a great baby.
00:56:31
And I just, great baby.
00:56:32
I don't like babies like that.
00:56:34
This was a notable, just emotive, gorgeous baby with big old man eyes.
00:56:39
And I didn't expect I could get anything out of them and me feel worth sitting through
00:56:44
that.
00:56:45
Like, like, you know, I didn't get invested in the baby and sit through all that nonsense
00:56:51
to really get anything out of it.
00:56:53
Just was like, okay, this is all right.
00:56:56
Not now what?
00:56:57
I think, you know, when you look at these films, like the thing you're supposed to get out
00:57:01
of it and people, people were Chris critical of episode nine to the ending of that.
00:57:07
That's just really violent, really bleak, bleak, but also kind of shawky and sloppy and cartoonish
00:57:13
too with the make when they put their eyes out in the makeup is kind of not the kind of
00:57:17
puffy and just kind of over the top with it.
00:57:20
I think you're supposed to get that you pose to feel that revolts in and that horror and
00:57:24
absolute sense of dread and you're and in most of these types of stories, you don't get
00:57:30
any resolution.
00:57:31
I actually don't think it's similar to I spit on your gray because I spit on your gray
00:57:35
if she does get revamp directly.
00:57:38
You wouldn't assume you're right.
00:57:40
Yeah, and it's more closer to like the home invasion movies where they just come kill you
00:57:46
and then they leave and then that's it.
00:57:49
But then the story goes on.
00:57:50
So I think he was like he was so he tries to he's trying to mix all these different dissonant
00:57:56
types of horror together too.
00:57:58
And I think that's a legitimate problem that you have with the show and even sometimes
00:58:04
he's like, not even in horror like like the stuff with the red lining.
00:58:08
It's like mad men and then the stuff with like the paying off the cop to do it.
00:58:12
That's just like a crime thriller.
00:58:13
That's just that's just like a easy role in his devil in the blue dress.
00:58:18
Like that he could have been that type of show as well.
00:58:21
So I do think there's a bit too much in it.
00:58:23
It's a bit too too long, but I do have to say like every single individual part is so
00:58:31
well done for a guy who this is his like his first major project and a bunch of different
00:58:37
directors, but the consistency of the visual style is just so strong and like all the way
00:58:45
they are able to mostly I think successfully mix the different genres.
00:58:50
It's just very impressive to me.
00:58:51
I wish this this was maybe maybe two half seasons of two different stories that kind of
00:58:58
split up some of these elements or maybe you just have more characters going through different
00:59:04
things that aren't necessarily all related and make it kind of a bigger show in some ways.
00:59:09
I will say even outside of the trauma porn like say the trauma porn problems weren't
00:59:13
there.
00:59:14
I didn't really find it that good as far as a plot pacing like I don't think there would
00:59:18
need to be like 10 hours of this.
00:59:20
It was just I felt like it was just very padded.
00:59:23
It was just full of just micro aggressions to pat out eight hours.
00:59:28
Like after like eight hours were like okay I get it.
00:59:31
They're going to walk into a white person somewhere is going to say something slick like
00:59:34
I get it.
00:59:35
I don't need to see eight hours of the grosser things that in slick and then the male man
00:59:39
sings and slick like it like I get it.
00:59:42
This could have been a two hour movie.
00:59:44
It could have been a two hour movie but it could have been a quite good two hour movie.
00:59:49
It could have been two hour movie.
00:59:50
I didn't really just think it was really well paced or worth the 10 hours that it wanted
00:59:55
out of me.
00:59:56
It could do is a good two hour movie in there somewhere that was just kind of bloated beyond
01:00:03
recognition.
01:00:04
I even think episode nine could have been its own like two hour movie.
01:00:07
That's just like mid summer with black people and basically.
01:00:10
Yeah, but they also could have kind of cut up like I gotta say I'm not I'm still not sure
01:00:14
what happened in it.
01:00:16
I was I confession I started zoning out.
01:00:19
I was just having a bulldoze at the end of the series by the end.
01:00:24
But I as I recall the preacher there was a nice preacher who was at odds with the rest of
01:00:34
the town because he thought he had a direct relationship with God.
01:00:37
But he was a nice guy.
01:00:38
He had taken in this orphan and he had just experienced a personal tragedy because his family
01:00:42
had all died.
01:00:43
Then here come these two black people wheeling into town and everyone wants the black people
01:00:47
to go away and they want nothing to do with them.
01:00:49
But the nice white preacher says no, no, Jesus says we got to you know be nice to strangers
01:00:54
and whatnot.
01:00:55
Then at some point I glanced up for my Twitter scrolling and the nice white preacher had
01:01:03
completely flipped and was suddenly talking about how we got to pluck the eyes out and burn
01:01:09
these Negroes up in this church and there the mob was on and pop in.
01:01:15
Well he was being haunted that child he took in was actually not a child.
01:01:20
It was a demon.
01:01:21
And so from the beginning of the yeah from the beginning of the episode he is being haunted
01:01:26
and driven mad by this child.
01:01:30
And so he it ends up encouraging and working up the tile into a frenzy he starts getting
01:01:35
into a frenzy because of the sort of untenable situation.
01:01:40
So he does flip on him which I think was very interesting because he's the he's the protagonist
01:01:45
of that episode.
01:01:46
He's the main character not the black couple and I thought it was just as like a capsule.
01:01:50
It was like a quite interesting like if this was the episode of like like a or any other
01:01:55
or anthology on the outer limits or I don't know tells from the cripple I think it would
01:02:00
be a creep show.
01:02:01
This would be a really strong entry because he's start as he starts off as kind of as good
01:02:06
man but by but we the unbeknownst the audience he's already sold his soul to the devil in that
01:02:14
first scene where we think he's actually a praying to God.
01:02:17
He's actually a praying to Satan and then from there there's that turn and it just absolutely
01:02:24
ends up horribly for the family but we get the small satisfaction that all the white people
01:02:31
die and he dies but he continues on as like a revenant or a ghost of some sort.
01:02:37
What do you think the devil was against black people that's what I didn't even understand
01:02:41
like why is it double yeah that's one thing that is explained that was I don't know if it's
01:02:45
necessarily the devil it's maybe a demon a demonic force in to you of some sort but ultimately
01:02:51
his motivation ultimately go on explain which I think the show is done did a pretty good
01:02:55
job of explaining the motivations of many characters the ones you wouldn't expect even
01:03:01
little racist you get to know why why they feel this way why they're acting out in this
01:03:07
way but they never really explain where this original evil comes from I think that was
01:03:13
a kind of a deliberate choice but it also is maybe a look is but it does require the
01:03:18
T.C. as you as you notice it the goat the original evil is also a racist too like it specifically
01:03:25
wants that racism out of you when you when you when it haunts people for some reason I don't
01:03:30
know why it's just that and then that's that's part of the that's part of the cheapening right
01:03:36
like because there's other stuff going on yeah but you could but I don't think any explanation
01:03:41
would have been kind of says fact three for the one explanation I want there to be I wanted
01:03:45
to be on the record that I wish there were no ghosts in this no explanation of the
01:03:49
motivation I think the ghost is dumb and we shouldn't have a ghost because like also like okay so
01:03:53
there was one this implication that one of the character one of the white women's husbands
01:03:57
is gay and that's part of her tension in her issue is that she like isn't feeling
01:04:04
desire whatever so we're is there another there's a like an anti gay demon that's gonna be a season
01:04:11
two or is it just black people are are the things that there was a lot of big a tree happening
01:04:16
in the neighborhood in the fifties but somehow it's just the blackness has the own special black devil
01:04:22
is there a gay devil is there like a misogynist devil a demon for everything and it's the
01:04:27
intersectional demon it just hates everything it just hates hate specifically black queer women who
01:04:35
are poor it's just intersectional demon that'd be a good one you know or I know this may begin
01:04:40
deeper this may begin deeper but that demon there seems to be a tie to the land specifically
01:04:47
is haunting that area area is that supposed to be the spirit of America and that's why it's
01:04:54
specifically a racist demon see you don't know Marvin didn't have it together but he's working on
01:05:01
multiple levels perhaps maybe I'm thinking about the intersectional intersectional demon like he
01:05:07
doesn't hate black people he doesn't hate women he doesn't hate gay people when they come together in
01:05:11
one body just activates I hate it you know I don't know like but this is supposed to be American horror
01:05:18
story style so he got to prove for two seasons out the bat and he's gonna have a second season with
01:05:26
a new story is not gonna continue from this one yeah it's supposed to be an anthology yeah I'm
01:05:31
curious what the second season will be maybe it'll it'll be interesting to keep in the same land
01:05:35
and or something like you said but I yeah I just really think it even if you hate I think it's just
01:05:43
a really like this is the best looking thing that almost any of the streaming servers have
01:05:48
have shot like I think it's kind of valuable for that especially with this young writer who I think
01:05:54
mostly I think the writing is pretty good the dialogue is pretty is very good compared to other
01:05:59
stuff especially when you compare it to like a lot of people were talking about lean the waith and
01:06:03
her influence of this I can tell she didn't work right one word of the script if she did also in
01:06:09
fact write the queen and slim script these are not made by similar yeah I think she's not ready
01:06:15
for eight credits I think I should yeah she's just like the executive producer on this so I don't
01:06:21
know what this says about her her work but I I I just I'm just really excited about this show I
01:06:27
I wish I wish it was promoted more accurately because like it's like it gets like extremely
01:06:35
negative reviews and something like vice but like a box or something like but nobody who works for
01:06:41
Vox should even be allowed to like rent any of this stuff like they should have like they're not
01:06:47
mature enough for this like this sort of like extreme horror for the most part I don't think any
01:06:52
about any like a lot of the mainstream like people who are writing about this were writing about it
01:06:57
like they were about to write about scandal like this is not you know like this is like a mainstream
01:07:02
thing I don't think I don't think it's fair to say that the criticism is because there's a genre
01:07:09
Mitch match I think some of the Chris there are some people that are like that but we have just come
01:07:13
out of a world where we've had like a 10-year trajectory of 12 years of slave through Django
01:07:23
Jojo Rabbit is in this kind of ufre we have Antebellum that just came out last
01:07:29
last year Antebellum is so cool you know we had I mean I feel like there was another one of these
01:07:35
shows that we just had you know we have people doing Harriet Tubman's that have whole fictional
01:07:41
love stories with flavor owners that didn't exist people are bringing up Octavia Butler like
01:07:47
we live in a world where this kind of genre mix oh you know the one with them tick
01:07:54
Oh lovecraft lovecraft country a ma's another one this ma yeah this this is not like people are like
01:08:02
obviously them and us and sorry us and Jesus sorry us and uh the other one the good one the first one
01:08:10
oh good deal good out so it's not like people are like I've never seen this before
01:08:15
but like get out is like a baby thing compared to this that's like a pv 13 movie oh I don't think so
01:08:21
I think let's like I think sometimes and it's completely fine to like stuff that isn't that good
01:08:27
we all know that I am famous for fully embracing lots of stuff that other people don't like
01:08:32
but I kind of know it's not good even if I like it I think that this there's a lot of beautiful
01:08:40
pieces of this and like you say I think visually it's absolutely stunning but sometimes something
01:08:46
it just doesn't hang together and I think that you could probably go in and edit the crap out of
01:08:52
this and film a couple extra scenes and make something that was extraordinary I think there's a lot of
01:08:58
good material here but I think it's not it's meritively you you say that the dialogue was good
01:09:05
it wasn't bad but I don't really remember much yeah I mean I love I love remember it oh I remember
01:09:12
every time he calls somebody a o-fe okay I thought the the husband's arc in particular like who
01:09:20
was very weak and who was he and was he kind of like a protector who could like get things done and
01:09:26
throw things down and I wasn't the army and I you know I had a little bit of a week you know a mental
01:09:31
health crisis but I'm here and I'm here to protect my family or is he a little bit of a punk who
01:09:36
just keeps kind of taking that at work like there was some character inconsistencies I think the point
01:09:42
I think the show was trying to show that he was both you have to be both if you're a black man like
01:09:47
that like that was the point of the character he was like throwing like the the black face character
01:09:52
he was throwing back in his face like oh you're big in the bed but you're smiling at these o-fays at
01:09:56
the office like that's like I think this is something I have to deal with I felt that I felt sad so
01:10:03
what did it mean when the black face character they wiped the paint off them and he's a white man
01:10:09
because they just made it rendered it utterly incoherent to me that was a little bit confusing me
01:10:13
I was hoping that he was going to wipe his face and be like a blank like void or something like that
01:10:18
I don't know why I was just a white guy because he wasn't even played by a white guy he was played by
01:10:22
yeah it was really a hero to me what it was trying to say that's the thing I think what they're trying
01:10:28
to do is that like he's trying to convince himself that he's not him that he's not that he's not
01:10:33
that jiggaboo character and so when yeah I think that's why he was saying so when he wipes it off
01:10:41
and you see it's a white it's actually a white man under there even though he actually is a black man
01:10:45
for most of the scenes when he wipes it off then he's like oh this isn't me this isn't another black man
01:10:51
this is actually just a menstrual show it's not real I think that was the point but I wish it was
01:10:57
some scary other it's what I I was looking for actually yeah and the late the latent series reveal
01:11:04
that he wasn't home for the rate because he had taken the girls to the movies I mean I think there
01:11:10
was some interesting ways you could have played with his kind of guilt around not being home but I
01:11:14
didn't even know why he wasn't home until like episodes yeah I think that's I think that's a lot
01:11:20
of that was like shifted from the first episode to later like I like that was a yeah you're absolutely
01:11:27
right that was another plot thread that felt like it was supposed to be in in injected quite a
01:11:33
bit earlier on just like the possibility that lucky might have actually killed the baby like
01:11:38
their show did more of that I'm the reason you would be there I think the reason it wasn't injected
01:11:42
earlier on was because it was trying to do the mystery box theater stuff where you just
01:11:48
introduce things non-linearly just to give the show the illusion of depth like that was just
01:11:53
something lost and watchman and anything linda lawper Abrams do a lot where is every show every show
01:12:00
has two time lives now it's got two timelines a flashback that reveals stuff that there's no
01:12:06
reason why it couldn't be revealed in linear fashion like there's no reason why you couldn't reveal
01:12:11
where he was earlier except that's just mystery box storytelling now and I really can't stand it like
01:12:19
non-linear for no reason at all like this time like there's a comic book called sleeper that reveals
01:12:24
things non-linearly and every non-linear reveal accentuates a narrative where it wouldn't be as good as
01:12:31
you if you revealed it linearly but most mystery box shows I think just make things non-linear just to
01:12:38
keep the audience guessing as to what am I even watching in a key piece to understand what you
01:12:44
were even just watching is reveal later and I always say like a difference between a mystery
01:12:51
and a mystery box show is like a mystery you're finding out things along with the protagonist but a
01:12:57
mystery box show is something that the protagonist knows things but it was helped from the audience
01:13:03
for no good reason except but it kind of hurts the show because it keeps you from connecting to the
01:13:08
protagonist because you're missing a key part of what the protagonist knows and you wondering
01:13:13
why it's a protagonist acting that way what is this protagonist problem and then two-thirds of the
01:13:19
way into the series you realize oh he went to the movies or he did this and it's like okay yeah so I'm
01:13:24
starting to connect now but it's only two two episodes left yeah exactly and like every show like
01:13:30
every show does this is much it must be a man-data because like it has like they could have edited the
01:13:36
show straight up linear and it wouldn't have changed that much except for maybe the episode nine and
01:13:43
it was just like the one flashback they could have done that but I really think that the streaming
01:13:48
services they have to mend like no one who sits down and writes decides that actually I want all my
01:13:55
backstory told in alternating flashbacks throughout the until like no one wants like to write a script
01:14:02
like that that's just like nonsense but I think that's what all the streaming services do now
01:14:08
because it makes it so that you can't you you when you're bored in episode one and two you're still
01:14:14
confused and don't actually know what's going on because you're like yes I want to know what's going on
01:14:21
I'll ask you guys something like do you think finding out if it was still linearly do you think finding
01:14:27
out about the rape it and the baby killing in the first episode would have hurt the narrative at all
01:14:34
I don't think it would have hurt the narrative but I think it would have hurt I think people would have
01:14:38
been extremely turned all the way yeah maybe yeah but couldn't they have told us couldn't they have
01:14:44
just heavily hit hit it that's something bad had happened that prompted the move without literally
01:14:50
showing the scene of the bludgeoning until you're sure as well you mean showing the scene but showing
01:14:54
it later but just being more telling us something terrible happened maybe you can even tell us we
01:15:01
lost a child and not tell us how maybe we thought it was a miscarriage maybe like whatever but
01:15:06
lay the foundation for it so we understand why she's sad why they're moving why you know some of
01:15:13
the emotional motivation the emotional underpinnings of the first episodes and then you would still
01:15:18
get a payoff of showing this gruesome event down the line oh I thought they did hinted but I maybe
01:15:25
it's because I knew it was happening because I saw people complain about it before but I thought they
01:15:29
did hinted but it might have been like subtle but I just picked up on it because I knew that's
01:15:35
something but I knew that the yeah because they did the baby is not there but they don't say why
01:15:39
the baby is not there but they don't say why and so maybe I just assume that you know some
01:15:45
pieces were there that weren't there yeah that I mean honestly that jump isn't that that like
01:15:51
backstory that doesn't bother me to me that's not a sequence of events issue that's just like I
01:15:56
wish it didn't happen yeah I mean I bothered me at first when they were jumping back because
01:16:00
the only way to tell like what was what time period you were in was when the the husband's beard
01:16:06
but he had a longer beard in the past which is usually like not how it goes usually in the in the
01:16:13
future moment you have the more facial hair so it was it was kind of a door and it just reminded me
01:16:19
like every single show does this for no reason even like a show like the Witcher has multiple timelines
01:16:26
going on even though it takes place in fucking 1600 Poland you need to know two different time
01:16:31
periods in fantasy 1600 Poland and or the keep up with the Witcher just a little bit I wished this
01:16:38
story of telling style we just completely die out but as long as we're watching streaming stuff I
01:16:43
think is gonna keep going I think all those awards that watchman just one is gonna give a whole
01:16:51
bunch of fresh gas into the tank for that style like there's a lot of because one thing about a lot of
01:16:55
these new writers who are trying to get to TV they've really cynically study what works and what
01:17:03
doesn't work like I was on the social media app clubhouse and there were a bunch of them in a room
01:17:08
trying to compare notes about what's one awards recently and what's been recently recently and
01:17:14
there was a guy taking notes and they're giving shows like you know about what's worked and I was
01:17:20
like wow this guy is gonna totally reverse engineer a show he was trying to write a show and he was
01:17:26
asking a bunch of other quote-unquote creatives you know what are some good shows that have gotten a
01:17:31
lot of buzz lately and stuff and so I think a lot of these writers I think deliberately try to
01:17:37
reverse engineer what's getting awards and what's getting you know a lot of good reviews so that's
01:17:44
what we said TV writers weren't creators creatives are here yeah exactly I'll say this about watchman
01:17:51
I was I was ground zero for why is this so confusing like I did not enjoy the ambiguity of the first
01:18:00
like half the season I was like I'm not trying to read 15 books in 80 years of comics and watch a movie
01:18:07
to understand what's going on in a TV show that I'm only watching to keep up with the zeitgeist
01:18:11
because I love old girl from always commercials like this is not this like this is not as like it
01:18:18
shouldn't be hard it shouldn't be work for me to understand a freaking show but I think watchman
01:18:24
paid off I think I was frustrated for seven tenths of this thing but by the end they linked up all of
01:18:32
the bits and a paid off now I wish they I think they could have done it without requiring all of that
01:18:38
confusion and frustration and making me stick it out for the beginning but I did appreciate that
01:18:43
it all seemed to be for purpose and that is not how I felt about them I think I could have liked
01:18:50
watchman if it just didn't call stuff for watchman that was my biggest problem with it to be honest it
01:18:55
just was not watchman if they just gave it a different name and different characters and just wrote
01:19:02
like a little one season mystery box show I would have I would have been annoyed with the mystery
01:19:08
boxness of it but I could have just enjoyed it like 50 shades of gray you wanted them to 50 shades of
01:19:14
gray you know how that's like Twilight and one of them like fanficking is that what 50 shades of gray is
01:19:19
like a fanfick twilight oh I didn't even know that it's interesting yeah exactly just give it
01:19:24
its own name and whatever yeah that's perfect I get where you're coming from now yeah yeah exactly
01:19:31
it's twilight set without vampires rich people instead of vampires which same yeah totally
01:19:37
like like which is funny because the original watchman was that too like um these comic book heroes
01:19:43
like Alan Moore wants to write about these comic book heroes they told me couldn't you mean
01:19:46
this alternate version if Damon love made his alternate name swap version of watchman and just
01:19:53
did his own thing I think I could have appreciated it as a mystery box show been annoyed at the flashbacks
01:19:59
but you know been in the same place where you were but yeah in general yeah this whole timeline
01:20:07
jumping thing in flashback thing I think is 90% of the time unwarranted wonderful to have such a
01:20:14
impassioned discussion thank you I really love this show and thank you all for uh tolerating my
01:20:21
my passion because this is I really feel like what I watch is I'm like this is one of my favorite
01:20:26
things I've watched like especially when it comes to like streaming this is not a easy show to go
01:20:30
to the mattresses for us I'm impressed that you know you were willing to go to the mattresses but
01:20:35
the show oh yeah protect little Marvin at all can we at least agree can we at least agree that he
01:20:41
did not know how to even the way you're gonna say it no I don't agree it can can we at least agree
01:20:45
that he did not completely drop the bag like a lot of people would on their on their first show can
01:20:51
you can't even give him that this is better than the first season of what any rando would do if
01:20:59
they were given Amazon money can you can we at least give him a little Marvin nothing I'm sorry oh come
01:21:04
on I don't think it was the worst thing in the world it was just so much of it that I got I presented it
01:21:09
over time if it were two hour movie that was only okay then I wouldn't be so frustrated yeah I can
01:21:15
see I can see that and that was my thinking like about halfway through I was like man I just wish
01:21:19
it was a two hour movie but then I then it kind of started winning me over especially with episode nine
01:21:25
I just thought that was just really really good much like it was as good as that one it was much I
01:21:31
think it was actually better than one episode of watchman everyone says is good that also think
01:21:35
is episode nine I think that's another thing on the streaming shows are doing where like only like
01:21:39
the eighth or ninth episode is a black and white flashback ends the only good episode of the season
01:21:44
yeah like that that's that's another thing they're all doing but I don't know that I can go aside
01:21:50
but the problem with that one good episode of watchman was that it was just one particular issue of
01:21:56
the watchman tv show they just redid it again like there's one episode the there's one issue of the
01:22:03
comic where because I watched watchman then I reread the comic right so I watched the watchman tv show
01:22:11
I'm like I don't like this tv show but I won't lie this episode is good then I reread the comic
01:22:17
in preparation of us doing a show on it then I got to that issue of the comic and I was like damn I
01:22:22
can't even give it credit for that it was just a retelling of this issue and I was so upset because
01:22:27
that was the one thing I was giving the show credit on and I had forgotten that it was actually a
01:22:32
not for no retelling basically of an issue of the comic all right folks that was culturally black
01:22:41
for struggle session I am Leslie the third I'm Brianna J great I'm Trevor Bollewe
01:22:48
thank you so much peace
01:23:05
(gentle music)